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First log in Tuner Pro..... now what...


PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246971 posted 08/21/19 08:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So, car now idles and drives low rpm pretty well.

However, 02 sensor not cycling. I have a new one, but figured I would go do one log to see if it would start cycling?

I logged a part throttle run through some gears. Can anyone take a look at the log if I email it to you and see what you think?

I will take a snapshot of a few rows as an example and post here.

Its been a while since I've viewed any log on the GVR4, but it doesn't look like some values are correct. You can see by the airflow hz that it started making PSI around 4250, but hz stops at 1600, so my keydiver chip did not bump the hz logable through the ECU then I take it?

Are all the values being effected by my O2 sensor not reading? I will swap it out and put the BISS back to where the ISC is at 30 steps at idle for next time. What else can I start logging in Tuner Pro that will help?

Sorry, maybe this should go in the newbie post.




-PJ



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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246975 posted 08/22/19 09:44 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So, I'm seeing that my car is not in "learn" mode, correct?

I found a post that I have to meet these requirements for that to happen:
Coolant temp >= 190F
* Intake air temp < 123F
* Baro >= 22.9 inHg
* Baro <= 31.6 inHg

So, I have 28.05 inHg barometric, that is good.
Coolant temp: Not on log but high speed fan engaging and disengaging and dash gage seems to read fine

Intake air: This is "fixed" since MAF doesn't have IAT. One of the downfalls of MAFT but need to ensure it is correct: 158.58 is out of range for the above to happen?

I still think I'm missing something very basic, but slowly working out the issues.

-PJ



#490/1000

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thomcasey
I ain't no puny human
866/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246979 posted 08/22/19 12:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How do you know the Coolant temp the ECU is seeing is correct?Dash gauge and fans would not necessarily indicate the ECU is seeing the correct temp. Check the sensor on the front of the Thermostat housing and verify both the sensor Ground (Green w/black stripe) and sensor hot (Yellow w/green line) ohm-out to pins 24/17(ground) and 20 (sensor) on the ECU plug. These lines see lots of heat cycles and can end up not having connectivity.



Thom
866/1000 (PTE 1200's, billet 20g+, DSMLink v3, eagle/ross, .020 over, 272's, GC/AGX Coilovers)

Posts: 887 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Member Since: 09/24/14 | IP: (2600:1700:6c83:0) | Report this post to a Moderator

PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246980 posted 08/22/19 01:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Good point on coolant temp sensor. Is that the 271 in my log?

I think I also have a connectivity issue on the ITS or IAT wire. Intake Air signal goes higher with no voltage, and so I am getting what appears to be a high reading on the ITS. With the brown wire connected on the MAFT, IAT should be 80F, not what mine is showing.

I will see if I can check the coolant sensor at the ECU. Might take a while for me to orient and figure out which is which but excellent suggestion.

-PJ




#490/1000


Edited by PJGross (08/22/19 01:09 PM)

Posts: 1551 | From: Lake Orion, MI | Member Since: 12/05/02 | IP: (204.117.38.42) | Report this post to a Moderator

PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247009 posted 08/25/19 10:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
New ECT sensor in. Readings in the 250F range. Seems high to me but not sure what to expect?

I decided I would try my new Denso O2 sensor.

Well, the car now cycles O2 while idling. I must have gummed up the old one 10 yrs ago with soot, etc.

So, now I have a car that goes into closed loop finally.

I took it out and just did a 1st, 2nd, 3rd pull while logging.

Interesting results. Only the FTL has moved off 100%. It is down at 81% after just a mile or two of driving.
I'm pretty sure this indicates rich at low throttle inputs and I can pull some fuel out.

In first gear I picked up massive knock right away with 50-70% throttle. In shifting to 2nd and rolling on, I didn't pick up much knock at all, and 3rd gear at 85% throttle was nearly clean with regards to knock up through 6375 rpm or so. Boost is set at about 14 psi or so.

-------------------------------------------
I will hook up my EGT gauge later this week. And I'll start reading about starting to dial in the SAFC / MAFT combo. Back in the day I believe Jeff (Keydiver) said since the chip was set for my injectors, to leave the MAFT set straight across and just tune with the SAFC. I think there may be some room to tune with the MAFT a bit prior to making adjustments on the SAFC. I know that both have effects on the timing charts, too. I just have to re-read to understand exactly what the impacts are.

At least I'm starting to make some progress. Feels good to hear the turbo spool again after so many years at least.

-PJ



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tektic
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247019 posted 08/27/19 08:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
To start pull timing at the places you are getting knock. Then when the knock subsidies find a guide for tuning a maft. 19% correction in a few miles shows a big error. I've never used a maft but yours is way off.

Posts: 1454 | From: ronkonkoma, ny | Member Since: 12/19/12 | IP: (2607:fb90:784:ed) | Report this post to a Moderator

PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247024 posted 08/27/19 09:01 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Interesting comment. On the guides I have been reading/reviewing, LFTs in the 80-90 range were considered generally acceptable an "rich safe"? Please note that some of these posts/references are 10+ years old. Also, I can not directly "pull timing" with either the MAFT or SAFC. There is an indirect effect of course to the hz adjustments.

I am pretty confident in starting adjust the MAFT settings a click at a time and log results to see where everything goes. Fortunately starting rich so fairly safe to do some adjusting.



#490/1000

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247027 posted 08/27/19 02:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How do you check the ECT circuit? With the old ECT sensor the reading on the logger was 271.75. From cold start it definitely started out around ambient but it quickly climbed to the 271.75. I think that this meant very minimal voltage getting to the ECU at that point. I'm at work and don't have the log with me, but with a new temp sensor I think I was getting lower than that but I need to see if it was changing when driving on the road vs idling in the driveway. I still think it was in the 250s.

Is there a way to just check voltage coming out of the sensor? Can I just pull back the plug cover and with the multimeter in VDC go parallel across the two connectors so parallel to the load, yes?

Then see the voltage at the ECU by probing the pin and ECU ground?

I really don't think coolant temps are actually that high but the 50/50 mix says 265 boing point so it is in the realm of possibility?

Turbo is oil cool only and I am running the '90 oil cooler with external air/oil cooler. So no extra heat load on the coolant other than the engine.

I wouldn't be questioning this as much but at the ECU my IAT is reading 183 or something similar when the MAFT is supposed to be sending 2.5V or 80F.

I will check out both of these shortly.

-PJ



#490/1000

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AllanL
Heal and Toe


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247035 posted 08/27/19 07:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
a manual is handy for such...


Posts: 259 | From: NV | Member Since: 08/05/08 | IP: (122.53.101.242) | Report this post to a Moderator

tektic
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247036 posted 08/27/19 09:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting PJGross:

Interesting comment. On the guides I have been reading/reviewing, LFTs in the 80-90 range were considered generally acceptable an "rich safe"? Please note that some of these posts/references are 10+ years old. Also, I can not directly "pull timing" with either the MAFT or SAFC. There is an indirect effect of course to the hz adjustments.

I am pretty confident in starting adjust the MAFT settings a click at a time and log results to see where everything goes. Fortunately starting rich so fairly safe to do some adjusting.




That's going to take forever! After tuning my maf my trims stay less than 3% +-. If you can't pull timing you will always knock. Your using antiquated tech. You have basically already settled for "good enough". With a piggyback you have no real control of whats going on.

How are you performing your load level logging?

Posts: 1454 | From: ronkonkoma, ny | Member Since: 12/19/12 | IP: (24.189.25.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247055 posted 08/28/19 12:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I don't know what you mean by "load level logging"? Can you explain? I don't think I have all the sensor bugs worked out to even start trying to dial in anything, yet. I have tunerpro and its 1G DSM captures for a logger.

It's funny, I'm really not the dude to say, "you don't know me" to your "good enough" comment, but I would guess it applies in this case.

Of course ECMlink is a proper tuning tool and the $500 really isn't a bad cost for that excellent tool. However, I have no experience in programming fuel and timing maps, etc. and I am not going to learn ECMlink when I'm trying to put together the basics to get the car in what I would consider sellable shape with no unnecessary additions. It's not that I don't think I could learn, it would be wasted since I will be getting out of this car quickly. Whoever ends up with it, I'm sure the first thing they will do is drop in ECMlink or equivalent.

I believe with the current chip that "should" zero out the MAFT settings, that I "should" be able to get in the ballpark as many people have done prior to switching to ECM link or other technologies. That is, if all sensors/wiring are intact, which I am making sure to check. I don't think I would be too far out on timing tables by keeping to reasonable levels of psi to ensure minor changes to hz? I want to demonstrate that everything works, not maximize HP on a particular grade of fuel or something.

I would think using what I have that would be reasonable to achieve a safe tune at a moderate power level. It just happens that I haven't thought much about MAFTs or SAFCs in nearly 20 years so my learning curve is a bit steep at the moment. So far what I've read about the MAFT/SAFC combo doesn't appear to unachievable, however.

When I did the rebuild and initial additions of FMIC, BS removal, 3G lifters, FP regulator, everything was great with engine break-in with stock 450s, 1G MAF, at 8-10PSI boost. Turning up PSI just slightly and was hitting fuel cut very quickly due to the increased airflow achieved. So since I had access to free 3" GM MAFs, I bought an MAFT and 660s and a keydiver chip. Then an SAFC for fine tuning. Other than going Haltech or 2G maf, I think it was reasonable in 2004. A lot of people were having success doing that. In fact, for about 100 miles or so, it was "pretty close" with mild boost levels, until I hit a pothole and the stupid crap down pipe that was very poorly executed bottomed out and I put it up JSB until I had it properly fixed. Well, that took a bit longer than I thought, as an understatement.

I'm sure doing the same thing today I would do much bigger injectors and ECMlink and wideband and be very happy as I learned all I needed to learn about tuning. But this isn't going to happen for me. I appreciate my relationship with my wife too much to dive in more.

I was posting these antiquated tuning help questions because I was hoping to get some insight from anyone with experience in the long process of dialing in an MAFT and SAFC, along with pointing out the really basic issues I needed to fix.

----------------------------
If, after fixing the obvious bugs and I continue to hit knock due to not being able to control timing, then I will disclose that to whomever I can get to buy the car.

At this point, I can demonstrate that the transmission, clutch, drivetrain, fuel system, etc. is all in pretty decent shape. I can show compression is good. I can point out all the areas of concern on the body and paint, show the interior and provide the documentation I have. I guess without parting out the car its about ready to sell. I just wanted to complete the basics before doing so, and I think that with a few circuit checks I'm nearly there.

-PJ



#490/1000

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tektic
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247066 posted 08/28/19 05:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well if you are unable to change timing or fueling, both tuning the safc and the maft do the same thing. Only fool the ecu maf signal. So your fighting yourself. I'd Put the maf that the ecu is programmed for back in then dial in the safc. Or buy some chips and a burner and write a new chip, maybe with a 2g maf. A burner is like $15. Chips are $5 each.

I can't think of a harder path to get a car working than the one your taking.

I'm not intending to offend! No I don't know you. The fact is though changing parts require ecu changes. If not its a hack and you can only hope to get it close. I'm just giving my impression. You're going to spend entirely more time turning knobs than is prudent. Try to simplify it as much as possible.

Posts: 1454 | From: ronkonkoma, ny | Member Since: 12/19/12 | IP: (24.189.25.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247069 posted 08/28/19 11:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting tektic:


I can't think of a harder path to get a car working than the one your taking.





I have to agree with tektic. If I were getting the car mechanically sound enough to demonstrate to a buyer that all the major systems function as they should, I wouldn't do it by using 2 outdated piggyback controllers on top of a piggyback ECU chip...All monitored via one of the least intuitive logging solutions available for the platform.

One cost effective solution to satisfy your goal would be to simply reinstall a stock DSM or Galant MAF, 450 injectors and remove all of the "tuning" things which are probably doing more to hurt driveability than help it.

If you're not willing to go that route, I'd just list the car like 99% of the other builds being sold which typically just "need a tune".

For the amount of time and effort you're investing, I doubt you're going to get any meaningful return in the way of recoup on your investment.

BTW, if you spend the $500 or so on ECMlink, you can tack that directly onto the sale price of the car and get a full return on that investment. I've yet to see secondhand ECMlink packages fetch much less than new price. That shit is literally worth its weight in gold.

Just tell your wife to let you temporarily invest $500 in the car so you can stop wasting a bunch of time in the garage. Then, post a hand full of 3rd gear pulls here and that's probably all it would take to get the car dialed in.

Bottom line, even if it were possible to make the car run decent on your current setup (which I doubt), I just don't think you're going to get much help here on the forum. Your case is one you'd probably need to really put hands on to figure it out. I understand your end goal and what you're trying to do, but don't want you to waste a bunch of time and effort only to have nothing to show for it, or worse, break the car in the process.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247083 posted 08/29/19 10:43 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Jeff (Keydiver) burned me a chip specifically for the MAFT 2.0X. MAFT should be zeroed via his direction.
He also suggested the SAFC for fine tuning. It was not something that was just thrown together... in 1994.

I get it, a pain in the Butt and the logger I think sucks even compared to the old pocketlogger.

So, I'm on board! 2 routes to choose. I actually like the idea of going back to stock 450s, 1G MAS, and stock EPROM.
That would be the easiest, and just leave at 10PSI and be done.

I have the original 1G MAS, it was "hacked" by the first owner, though.
I do not have the stock 450s. Sold them long ago.
I do not have a "stock GVR4" EPROM.

Suggestions where to source? I can ask for 450s in the parts wanted, but what about the EPROM?

------------------------------------
If I go ECMlink, what will I need to do? Please point me to a VFAQ or 1G DSM guide for link.

I am concerned with:
1) Initial baseline tune. How do I ensure fueling and timing tables are "close" at initial startup? Do I specify the basics when placing my order and the EPROM Chip will have this information already on it?

2) What other hardware changes will I have to make? I think I can still utilize the GM 3" MAF, yes? Do I add an IAT sensor with this route or does link use the GM IAT/Baro calculation to adjust for climate?

There is a huge part of me that wants to do #2. I would recoup part of the cost with a barely used MAFT 2.0X and SAFC barely used in the for sale area for someone that is more stubborn than me, right? Or just put them on ebay for those less educated on ECMlink...

Thanks for the opinions and stopping me from going crazy over the next month or so.
I completely agree that messing with the Hz to fool the computer was a half ass solution that did work but not ideal.

-PJ



#490/1000

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247084 posted 08/29/19 10:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ah, if updated, ECMLink V3 for GVR4.
So, I keep the MAFT in loop and fill out the form.

My ECU is socketed already so I'm not sure what the option is for socketed EPROM $40?

Looks like $545 for this setup?

-PJ



#490/1000

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thomcasey
I ain't no puny human
866/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247086 posted 08/29/19 11:46 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
They also sell a cable that will eliminate the MAFT all together, much cleaner. ECMLink isn't really all that hard to figure out. When installed, just a few setting, a simple MAFComp autoset for idle and cruise and it will be ready for sale.

If you already have a socketed ECU, then you don't need to pay for anything outside of Link (which includes the cable, software and EPROM chip) but the extra for the MAF cable Is something I recommend. You can sell the MAFT and easily get that little extra back plus some.



Thom
866/1000 (PTE 1200's, billet 20g+, DSMLink v3, eagle/ross, .020 over, 272's, GC/AGX Coilovers)

Posts: 887 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Member Since: 09/24/14 | IP: (2600:1700:6c83:0) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247095 posted 08/29/19 09:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The MAFT setups are trash, IMO. I'd get rid of that and spend $40 bucks on a 2G, 3G or Evo 8 MAF. Hell, I'd go stock MAF before I fucked with a MAFT. Again, just my opinion.

ECMlink is damn near plug and play, and there's enough people around who are familiar with it to give you good feedback on how to get your setup dialed in.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247096 posted 08/30/19 09:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^ You have me just about sold! I took a peak at Ebay and think I can recover nearly half of the costs of ECMlink by selling the MAFT and SAFC on there, anyway.
Of course, parting out the entire car would be the best $$ decision, but I'm not going to be doing that. (too much pride into #490).

With a functional way of logging and getting some feedback here and on the ECMlink forum, looks like it would be a good thing.

I can just push off my Kimber TLE 10mm purchase a bit longer into the future is all....

-PJ



#490/1000

Posts: 1551 | From: Lake Orion, MI | Member Since: 12/05/02 | IP: (204.117.38.42) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247102 posted 08/31/19 10:14 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting PJGross:

I can just push off my Kimber TLE 10mm purchase a bit longer into the future is all....





Owning something chambered in 10mm makes about as much sense as tuning a Galant on a MAFT+SAFC+Tuner, so makes sense.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247103 posted 08/31/19 01:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yep, that's me. It's being different plinking and at the range with friends.

Although I was actually now thinking CZ scorpion. Fun plinker and ammo is <.20 a shot.

I didn't realize in michigan a retracting stock was legal until recently, er, pistol support....

-PJ



#490/1000

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247121 posted 09/04/19 01:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Just to regroup on this:

1) My ECT readings essentially going to minimal volts was due to 4 strands of wire left connecting the spades in the connector. After crimping on new spades to good wire, the ECU is getting better voltage and now getting a better ECT reading at the ECU.

2) Did not have time to investigate the reason for the ECU showing higher than 80F IAT that is expected from the brown wire coming from the MAFT.

3) Still need to adjust TPS closed to .63V as well. Sitting at .60V on the SAFC currently.

-----------------
After those issues are dealt with, I'll see where I'm at and follow some good advice on updating to a modern setup.

But first I have a boat floor to replace and two Spartan races to run this weekend.

Thanks,
PJ



#490/1000

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