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Long term project build - 375-400 whp


mk2davis
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245718 posted 04/02/19 03:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Now that I got 398 running well in mostly stock form, the next thought is of course more power. My target is 375-400 whp on pump gas over the next 2 years or so; nothing mind blowing but enough to get your attention. I intend this to be a DDable, and a weekend toy for track events and maybe some rallycross. I don't foresee drag racing in my future. I started reading How to Build Max-Performance Mitsubishi 4g63t Engines by RRE (although now I can't find the darn thing), and then I realized that book is over 10 years old! I've also been reading different threads which give good ideas, but not the end all be all and they rarely follow up with results.

Right now she sits mostly stock with notable upgrades being a small 16g turbo, rewired walbro 190hp, K&N, 2.25" exhaust, Greddy EBC.

The goal is acquire quality pieces as they become available at a decent price. Not trying to go bargain basement, and not trying to pay f' me prices to get it done tomorrow.

So I have two questions. Is my build sheet reasonable, and where do I start?

The Plan (since I have a block that needs to be machined anyways):
EMCLink - 600
At least a 4 bolt rear diff
3" exhaust
FMIC - EVO XIII/IX - 150-200+/-
3G MAF
2.3L with 9:1 compression
4g64 crank - 200
pistons - 600
con rods -
Cams - I was looking at 272/272 cams but don't know with larger displacement
850-1050cc Injectors
16/20g hybrid turbo
Tranny rebuild

My upgrade path will likely be in this order, as the first part of the list I can use with mildly upgraded motor in there now. I can do the latter part of the list with the block that's out of the car right now. I do live in CA, so smog is a thing. Attention, either from LEO's or others, is to be avoided.

Advice, hints, tricks, tips, and leads are all welcome. I am updating my build list with model/generation notes and approximate costs.


Edited by mk2davis (04/03/19 05:33 PM)

Posts: 81 | From: Ventura, CA | Member Since: 03/01/15 | IP: (47.148.36.232) | Report this post to a Moderator

iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245719 posted 04/02/19 03:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
One suggestion, if you stay with a MAF, go straight to an Evo/3G Eclipse part numbers 399/482 MAF. This is a much higher performance MAF than the 2g, can be hidden in your stock aircan (have to find the threads on here, I think from Turbo Tom but not sure that is his username), and will work great with Link.

EvoIII 16g turbo would be almost indistinguishable for smog, but may not meet your HP goals. I am not super familiar with the 20g and whether it maintains stealth appearance.

An Evo 8/9 FMIC fits nicely with modded bumper beam. You will have to adapt piping of course. Or find a used ETS kit. This may sound warning bells in CA.

2.5 or 3 inch exhaust works. Many find 2.5 sufficient and not as loud.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
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91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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mk2davis
Junior Member
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245721 posted 04/02/19 04:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
These are all good points, Iceman.

Is there a plug and play adapter for the 3G MAF like there is for the 2G?

My concern with the EvoIII 16G turbo was that it might run out of poke. Maybe the bump in displacement will get it over the edge, I don't know. At the end of the day, I'd rather have a quick spooling 375 than a lazy 400.

Even the ETS kits used I've heard are expensive. I don't know exactly what FMIC I'm going with, or how big. I know some people have painted the IC for sneakiness, but I'd imagine paint doesn't conduct heat well.

I've heard 2.5" is both quieter and doesn't have clearance issues. Others say isn't not big enough. Maybe I can find someone that can do 2.75".

Thanks for the feedback. This is exactly what I'm looking for.

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transparentdsm
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245723 posted 04/02/19 08:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Build your 16g into a bastard 20g. GSTwithPSI(Brett) did this and had amazing results. I currently have one that I just built that I hope to use soon. The plan was for about the HP your plans are for. I'm actually going to be using an Evo 8 intercooler in my build along with tye maf and yes there is a plug and play adapter that can be bought right here on our wonderful website by Iceman actually. click

The 190 fp you have should more then do the job as well as the 2.5 exhaust. I would however suggest larger injectors or consider running methanol.

I won't be running link, I'm going to get tye ECU socketed and run a burnt chip for my needs as I'm going for ease and simplicity.



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mk2davis
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245724 posted 04/02/19 10:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'll talk to the turbo guy that helps out with the race car and see if he can build a bastard 20G for me. I'm not concerned about smog and the FMIC, and a quick search showed Evo 8-9 IC's on ebay were pretty inexpensive.

For injectors, would you suggest I go 850 or 1050? I have some experience with methanol but only on a diesel, although I'd prefer to not have to deal with it.

School me up a little bit. I was considering the Link as the best way to diagnosis and maximize the tune. But I'm not going to go deeper into HP wheel. Is there a cheaper way to get similar results? My ECU was inspected and socketed, but as I understand it the chip doesn't allow you to see what the ECU sees, does it?

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iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245725 posted 04/03/19 07:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting mk2davis:

These are all good points, Iceman.

Is there a plug and play adapter for the 3G MAF like there is for the 2G?






I still make them.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245726 posted 04/03/19 07:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Good point by Shane on the 20g. I was not considering the added displacement which may make the 16g too small.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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gvr4ever
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245730 posted 04/03/19 08:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do you already have the 2.3 or is that your plan? You don't need that to hit your target.

Intake manifold, cams/valve springs, head studs might be enough. Unless you already have a high mileage engine, the bottom end is likely healthy.

My setup is 750cc injectors, 3G MAF, 2.5" exhaust, big 16g turbo. It's fast enough for me. Don't race it, just a street car. I need suspension and tires upgrades.



1992 Nile black w/sunroof
15xK miles. 2nd owner since 1998

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transparentdsm
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245731 posted 04/03/19 08:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting mk2davis:

I'll talk to the turbo guy that helps out with the race car and see if he can build a bastard 20G for me. I'm not concerned about smog and the FMIC, and a quick search showed Evo 8-9 IC's on ebay were pretty inexpensive.

For injectors, would you suggest I go 850 or 1050? I have some experience with methanol but only on a diesel, although I'd prefer to not have to deal with it.

School me up a little bit. I was considering the Link as the best way to diagnosis and maximize the tune. But I'm not going to go deeper into HP wheel. Is there a cheaper way to get similar results? My ECU was inspected and socketed, but as I understand it the chip doesn't allow you to see what the ECU sees, does it?




A set of 850 will do you fine, but one thing I've learned over the years when choosing injectors is the bigger the better. You want to try to keep IDC's low.

LINK is a great solution for what you plan on doing. It has many options and will allow you to monitor, log and even add a few additional input sensors/gauges like a wideband. It also allows you to convert to speed density if you ever feel the need for that.

Running a burnt chip like I plan is going to limit me in a lot of ways. I can still monitor my ECU, but it takes a datalogging device (palm pilot and mmcd), I won't be able to change or adjust anything with the burnt chip. It's all prewritten and I can only go as far as the chip will let me. So when it comes to tuning I just turn up boost till I see knock and then remove 1-2 psi, with link if you see knock you can just go removing timing, add some more fuel and keep adding boost. From personal experience I usually can obtain anywhere from 17-20 psi on a burnt chip and upwards of 24-26 psi out of link. This is from a number of years of playing with these cars, countless turbos and a lot of work though.

On to the methanol, well with link you probably won't have any need for it, but it's something I plan to run if I can reach my goals without out it. Link, while awesome is a bit pricey, and for $75 you can get a burnt chip and fir like $400 you can get a methanol kit. That puts a little over $100 cheaper and if you understand methanol you can turn up boost and add the required amount. With link if your not 80% sure you can do it I suggest taking it to a tuner and paying the few hundred bucks to have it tuned. For me I tune my own cars, my other vr4 I just started to strip down was actually on a different bastard 20g, I got about 24-25 psi out if it on link with a set of 880 injectors and it was flowing 43.5-44 lbs a min of air. That would be right about where your looking to be and that car has a very simple set up. Nothing fancy at all. Just a janky fmic and piping kit, an eBay 20g that was sent to Justin whitesell for a balancing, some 880 injectors, link, speed density, a wideband and a fuel pump.

There are a lot of different options out there, you just need to find what suits your needs best.



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mk2davis
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245736 posted 04/03/19 12:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I probably don't NEED the pump in displacement. It just seems like the bigger displacement will help the turbo spool quicker, and put less stress on the turbo as I'll have more NA power. This would seem to lead to better drivability and better reliability. If I misunderstood something, please let me know.

There are a bunch of different options out there, TPDSM. That's why I'm gathering info from those with more experience than I have. So it sounds like injectors between 850-1050 are what I want. I'll add that to my shopping list. Link sounds like my best option, as I am not familiar enough with 4G63T to accurately know what it wants. The words of the day for me will be "tuning revisions" and "patience".

This little project will cost $5-6k, 3-4 in hard parts and the rest in little things that always seem to add up. Does this sound about right?

It sucks I can't find my book. I seem to remember a 100mm OEM crank and 86.5mm pistons to get the 2.3? This is from memory, if someone can clarify that would be super. At my power goals, would I need the 2G connecting rods? I seem to recall a larger wrist pin on those.

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tektic
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245738 posted 04/03/19 01:05 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My little project is upwards of $12k... So 5-6k is probably a little light unless you got a killer deal on everything. 2g rods don't fit a 6 bolt crank. The piston diameter needs to fit the bore. If your using a 4g63 block with 100 mm 4g64 crank you need pistons with the wrist pin raised 6mm. A 156 mm rod is a better choice than the 100mm crank IMHO.

If your engine has good compression you'd be better off doing boltons and tuning. Invest in cams valve springs a bigger turbo better exhaust manifold intercooler and a reliable tuning method. A palm pilot is Mickey mouse. The built engine isn't going to do much except allow you to run more aggressive boost. Changing the engine compression and stroke is going to make tuning more involved.

With a hta86 or similar turbo, cams and a tune you would be right where you want to be with the stock block. If you want to build something, build your head, or get a 2g head and build that. Head studs, a street port, good valve job, cams, beehive springs and light weight retainers. Stock block is good for 450hp.


Edited by tektic (04/03/19 01:28 PM)

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gvr4ever
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245742 posted 04/03/19 09:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm going to have to agree, if your compression is good, don't bother changing the whole engine. Because your in CA, you will have to go larger injectors. I forgot about that.

You will break things along the way and need repairs. Stick with bolt on's and tune to stick closer to your budget. Also, adjust for brakes, tires, and suspension.

The engine is very stout. Don't change what doesn't need changing.

Random examples. I have a torn axle boot and a small coolant leak. I had a turn key car for about 6 months, and than she becomes a needy little bitch again. Core engine has always been solid, but it's everything else.



1992 Nile black w/sunroof
15xK miles. 2nd owner since 1998

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mk2davis
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245776 posted 04/09/19 02:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I had rod knock in my old motor, so the crank is coming out regardless. The block has at least 100k on it, and it probably wouldn't mind a refresh. And I wouldn't mind a little more than 8.3:1 pistons. I'm doing the work anyways, why not spend the extra 3 bills and have a little extra displacement. Reliable BIG power likes low compression and more boost, I get it. And I realize I'll have to tune it a little more carefully, and my redline will drop 500-700 rpm. These don't seem to be deal breakers for more torque and quicker spool. Someone please correct me if my trade offs are incorrect.

This is all assuming that my car is running correctly now, because this is my comparison. I'm getting full boost (usually about 12 pounds, EBC second setting at 15 which is just before my fuel cutoff) around 3500-4000 rpm and 24mpg highway. Boost at 2800-3000 would be more DD friendly. Boost numbers would come down a bit, and I'm okay with this.

I have to talk with a fellow land speed racer friend of mine. He's doing 3 and change mpg in a '32 roadster that is 4g63t powered. His specialty is a bit more advanced than what I'm looking for, but his knowledge would also be valuable.

I do have other things to drive, so having this car down for a bit is not a non-starter.

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gvr4ever
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1245778 posted 04/09/19 03:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I guess it comes down to preference. I have a old greddy b boost controller and I usually flip it to stock 11psi in town. FMIC and exhaust seemed to really improve boost hit, when it kicks in.

My cams/valve springs/rev limiter are stock, but after driving a 2ZZ-GE as a daily, I'd rather have a 2.0 with a higher rev limiter and a turbo that can hold boost till 8K RPMs.

Would you rather have a AP-1 or AP-2 S2000?

If your reason for wanting to stroke your engine for a faster spool time, I'm not sure how much that will help. I'd think the right turbo and setup would make you happy. Maybe other can chime in. I don't have personal experience with a 2.3



1992 Nile black w/sunroof
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