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Crank/No Start


citymunky
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118264 posted 04/14/13 03:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Fighting this Crank/No Start issue.

I have spark (checked with a spark plug tester on all wires)
I had Fuel Pressure (40 PSI on AFPR during cranking)
I have good Compression (180-190 across the board)
Mechanical Timing is dead set perfect.


On the Jackal Logger Is shows during cranking:
-RPM's in the 200's
-Injected Pulse at 4.4ms
-Injected Duty cycle 1%
-A/F at 7.5:1
-Engine Load at 6.83

As soon as I stop cranking, the logger shows:
-RPM's at 0's
-Injected Pulse at 0ms
-Injected Duty cycle 0%
-A/F at 21.33:1
-Engine Load at 1

All that info is telling me that I'm getting fuel spraying out of the injectors.

The only valve that doesn't change is Timing. It stays at 5 BTDC however I not sure if that is normal or not. My timing table doesn't go below 750RPM in which with the engine load from 6 to 7, the timing is suppose to be 13 deg BTDC.

Does anybody know if the timing should change during cranking?



1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (108.26.68.13) | Report this post to a Moderator

transparentdsm
I have to say something dumb Member
138/2000


152/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118268 posted 04/14/13 04:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
check the connection to the CAS, ISC and TPS. i had my CAS not snugged down all the way(from a quick glance i didnt notice it wasn't down all the way) and the car wouldnt start, giggled the plug down a tiny bit and vrooom right on.



138/2000
152/1000

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holeshotmoe
subclass marmoreus


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118269 posted 04/14/13 04:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Only thing I can think of is to verify fuel and spark at the end of their circuits, i.e., combustion chamber. Pull the plugs...should have unburned fuel on them. Then attach the cable to the plug and lay it on the intake where you can see it spark while cranking. Wet plugs and good spark would tell me I had bad gas, e.g., water present. Curious what you find.



Done there, been that


Edited by holeshotmoe (04/14/13 04:20 PM)

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citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118273 posted 04/14/13 05:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^

I forgot to add this is the 1st time I'm trying to start the car since building everything. I know for a fact I have fuel coming out of the injectors for the reason you just said. Also the spark plugs are new. For starting the car I only added a gallon of fuel to the tank last Friday. I know the fuel isn't bad because I filled up my trunk when I went to fill up the 1 gallon gas can.


Quoting transparentdsm:

check the connection to the CAS, ISC and TPS. i had my CAS not snugged down all the way(from a quick glance i didnt notice it wasn't down all the way) and the car wouldnt start, giggled the plug down a tiny bit and vrooom right on.




It's not cold so ISC should not matter. I know the TPS is connected because I can watch the throttle position move on the logger when I step on the gas pedal. On the CAS plug I had the metal installed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did review the FSM a bit and I checked the CAS harness, reading the wires everything checks good:

Pin 1 I get 4.9v (the range is 4.8v - 5.2v)
Pin 2 is the ground
Pin 3 I get 12.50v (Battery voltage)
Pin 4 I get like 0.018v (continuity)


Now on the local DSM forum I posted my plans for the weekend were to get the car started, and the guy I got my shell from told me to make sure the CAS plug is wired right? Are black top CAS wired different than Green tops? I searched online and I get both yes and no.


Edited by citymunky (04/14/13 05:18 PM)

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (108.26.68.13) | Report this post to a Moderator

MellowVR4
5" too short
372/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118290 posted 04/14/13 07:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
coolant temp sensor?



89 RAIDER V6 5speed
90 GALANT GSX SOLD
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citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118293 posted 04/14/13 08:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^ I just fixed that issue.

I was flooding out the cylinders, and after some quick searches one of the reason was a bad coolant temp sensor. When the sensor goes bad it tells the ECU the coolant is -76 degrees, so the ECU just dumps fuel. I checked on the logger I was reading -74 degrees, I when to go read the resistance between the pins and I noticed the connector was not connected. Now that it is it shows 58 degrees.

Tomorrow I have to get new spark plugs since I'm petty sure I fouled the set in the car now.



1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.


Edited by citymunky (04/14/13 08:29 PM)

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (108.26.68.13) | Report this post to a Moderator

Olson
Pwnd by Rance.
338/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118301 posted 04/14/13 09:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
dont get new plugs just torch them off clean them up slap them back in and let it run.



338/2000
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88 Raider

"Oh, and if you want to build your status and rank, go play some WoW. Come back when you're ready to talk cars". Qship

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holeshotmoe
subclass marmoreus


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118302 posted 04/14/13 10:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You got me thinking about the CAS. I changed one on my 90 ggsx with a greentop from a 1g and had to wire in the connector because it was different. But I don't know about the blacktop version. I suppose a mis-wired CAS could cause it to fire at the wrong stroke and it would act like you had your plug wires mixed up. Should be able to check by:
-pull all the wires off the plugs (this is to prevent it starting for the moment)
-position piston #1 at the bottom of its exhaust stroke
-pull the #1 plug and rest it on a good ground like the intake with the wire connected to it
-turn the ignition to on
-have someone crank the engine using a drive in the crankshaft
-watch that plug to see if it fires as the piston approaches TDC

Alternatively you could loosen the CAS lockdown nuts and rotate it to simulate engine mothion. In this case you would need to set #1 piston closer to TDC. You would want the crank positioned just before the number of degrees your timing is set. Then by rocking the CAS back and forth you could cause the plug to fire. And by the way, have you verified the wires are on the correct plugs? You mentioned you had used a plug tester but I'm not sure I know what that device might be.
**Edit...DSMpartout lists the blacktop CAS as direct swap for 91-94 DSMs


Edited by holeshotmoe (04/14/13 11:40 PM)

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Wizardawd
Senior Member
598/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118311 posted 04/14/13 11:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^ Don't have to do all that, just remove the CAS from the head, turn the ignition to the on position and spin it by hand. You'll hear the injectors fire, fuel pump turn on and spark plugs firing.

Wiz



598/1000 Nile Black
12/2000 Nile Black
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citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
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832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118654 posted 04/17/13 04:58 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^

I did turn the CAS with it still install and I did hear the injections and spark plug go off.



1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.

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citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118796 posted 04/17/13 07:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just a quick update, I slaved in my old coil pack from my USDM intake manifold and now I get some combustion (RPM's go to about 700 ) and than the engine just died.



1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (66.87.84.208) | Report this post to a Moderator

Racah15
Member +


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118801 posted 04/17/13 08:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How long was/has it been down? Is this just a happened one morning kind of thing, or has it been sitting for a while? Fresh build? Etc?

Posts: 315 | From: Colorado springs CO | Member Since: 08/28/12 | IP: (67.164.162.44) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118881 posted 04/18/13 09:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
DO you need to go through a start up tune? Please list the history of the build, that will help in narrowing this down. If it's a fresh build, DO NOT keep cranking it over without starting it. You won't get oil pressure and you'll do some damage. Also that rich I'd be worried about washing out the rings, especially if they are new.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
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citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118946 posted 04/18/13 04:05 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Jackal comes with a stock base map as a starting point, which is uploaded to the ECU, but this is a fresh build. As far as oil pressure I primed the oil pump from the OFH. Everytime I crank I check the rocker arms for fresh oil, and I know not to keep cranking for no reason.

click



1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (66.87.80.143) | Report this post to a Moderator

Racah15
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118950 posted 04/18/13 04:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I just did a build on mine and wouldn't start. Happened to be bad gas. Try emptying your gas tank and putting in some fresh 91/93/e85 whatever you use. Diagnosed it for atleast a whole day and it turned out to be the gas. Everything was in check including the base map for DSMLink on SD (since I didn't have a MAF). I had compression, spark, and air. It was mind boggling. Until finally said "Screw it, lets put some good gas in just so it's not something stupid" and it was. Ofcourse I didn't empty my gas tank, so it took a while for the good gas to mix with the bad gas, but it worked. So give that a try, My car wasn't down too long either, Couple months. It seems as if the return line or feed line see air, it ruins gas for somereason. Atleast on my e85 car, and a buddies car.


Edited by Racah15 (04/18/13 04:33 PM)

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citymunky
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1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118954 posted 04/18/13 05:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm using 93, but the tank was empty petty much the whole time that car was JSB. I drained to drop it the tank and repaint it. I just put fresh gas it within the last 2 weeks.



1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (108.26.75.74) | Report this post to a Moderator

5OF2k
Member ++
5/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118959 posted 04/18/13 05:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting citymunky:

Fighting this Crank/No Start issue.

I have spark (checked with a spark plug tester on all wires)
I had Fuel Pressure (40 PSI on AFPR during cranking)
I have good Compression (180-190 across the board)
Mechanical Timing is dead set perfect.


On the Jackal Logger Is shows during cranking:
-RPM's in the 200's(normal)
-Injected Pulse at 4.4ms(seems HIGH, by double, to me....I see only 2k typically)
-Injected Duty cycle 1%(also seems a tad high, especially considering you're only cranking the engine)
-A/F at 7.5:1 (further justifies you're getting WAY too much fuel, that's fat as hell AFR)
-Engine Load at 6.83(what is the UOM for the load value, and what MAF/MAP setup are you running?)

As soon as I stop cranking, the logger shows:
-RPM's at 0's
-Injected Pulse at 0ms
-Injected Duty cycle 0%
-A/F at 21.33:1
-Engine Load at 1

(^ all of that looks normal)

All that info is telling me that I'm getting fuel spraying out of the injectors.

The only valve that doesn't change is Timing. It stays at 5 BTDC however I not sure if that is normal or not. My timing table doesn't go below 750RPM in which with the engine load from 6 to 7, the timing is suppose to be 13 deg BTDC.

Does anybody know if the timing should change during cranking?(My timing is setup around 30* max when its cold, but im not 100% as to what it is at when I am cranking the car. I'll have to hop on and see this afternoon when I get off of work. Timing should increase with cranking though, I believe)




Edited with my responses.

Kind of looks like you're dumping way too much fuel in.... -Jake



1993 Talon TSI, FPgreen DD
1957 VW Beetle Sedan Deluxe
1997 Civic EX, B18c/5lug swapped
2002 Yamaha Fz-1
Looking for another GVR4, or 5/2000...PM!


Edited by 5OF2k (04/18/13 05:15 PM)

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citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1118968 posted 04/18/13 05:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
At the beginning, yes however that was due to the coolant sensor not being connected. With the coil pack swapped in this is what I'm seeing with the coolant at 75 degrees.

-RPM's getting up to 1156
-Injected Pulse starting at 4.9ms and going up to 14.3ms just before it dies.
-Injected Duty cycle starting at 1% and jumping up to 14% just before it dies.
-A/F at 7.5:1 (However without combustion there is no air/fuel ratio so that number is meaningless in terms of that being my actual A/F)
-Engine Load starting at 1 and jumping up to 7.17 before dying.

I'm using a GM 3 Bar MAP and GM IAT (Jackal is Speed Density only)

Load UOM is base on g/rev (Whatever means ).

Here is the timing table


Here are the VE tables



Edited by citymunky (04/18/13 07:37 PM)

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (108.26.75.74) | Report this post to a Moderator

citymunky
Fake Title
733/2000
1505/2000
923/2000
832/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1119016 posted 04/18/13 09:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just got it started, my MAS connector was wired wrong,I reading the wires from the ECU to the Stock MAF to GM BAR sensor look for opens. I seem that the stock MAF connector has 2 green wires with a yellow stripe and brown dash (see Pin 16). When I got 1505/2000 shell it had a 2g MAS hardwire in, so when I wired in the stock 1g MAS pigtail I mixed up the wires .




1990 MMC GVR-4
733/2000 (R.I.P. TurboRen) Sold.
1505/2000 (Loves strippers) Sold.
832/2000 (parts car) R.I.P.
923/2000 (my 1st) R.I.P.

Posts: 1751 | From: Chesapeake, VA | Member Since: 09/22/10 | IP: (108.26.75.74) | Report this post to a Moderator

5OF2k
Member ++
5/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1119075 posted 04/19/13 09:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Excellent! Glad you got it figured out, it was actually a very similar issue to what my own car was doing (see my thread....lol), only mine was intermittent. The fact that your pulse rate was so high told me it was most likely something to do with that. Glad you got it sorted out!

-Jake



1993 Talon TSI, FPgreen DD
1957 VW Beetle Sedan Deluxe
1997 Civic EX, B18c/5lug swapped
2002 Yamaha Fz-1
Looking for another GVR4, or 5/2000...PM!

Posts: 664 | From: colorado springs, colorado | Member Since: 03/28/12 | IP: (140.32.120.188) | Report this post to a Moderator

theevozero
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480/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1247368 posted 09/30/19 10:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I've had this same issue you described for years now. I've replaced so many things including the engine. Used 2 different engine management system including dsmlink v3 and aem v2. Except mine wasn't a new build, it stalled and hasn't really started and ran normally for about 5 years now. The only thing I haven't replaced is the map sensor, you got me thinking. It shows vacuum during logs though.


Edited by theevozero (09/30/19 02:07 PM)

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