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Running rich...need help


kjwillia
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 975754 posted 03/10/11 04:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hello, I could use some assistance. My stock Galant VR4 is running rich. Not so much that it is fowling the plugs but the gas mileage is less than 20 MPG and it smells like raw gas everytime I stop and shut the car off. It starts fine, ideals OK but should have more power when the turbo comes on like my 97 GSX. Any thoughts on what I might try to hel lean this thing out?
Thanks in advance for your help VR4 tech guys. I will try all suggestions and post the results...
-Kevin

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Brunoboy
Jesus Clips
352/1000
556/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 975756 posted 03/10/11 05:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
boost leak



556/1000 KG 8/10/13 .... Sold
352/1000 Summit White sold in 2011 and was totaled by new owner......
92 Eclipse Gsx R.I.P
96 Eclipse Gsx Sold

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kjwillia
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976000 posted 03/11/11 02:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I made a boost leak tester with the help of a very good post on this site. I have tested the system before and found some leaks and fixed them. I have checked it again per your suggestion and no leaks........next suggestion...

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Brunoboy
Jesus Clips
352/1000
556/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976009 posted 03/11/11 04:03 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Leaky injectors? Fpr failure?



556/1000 KG 8/10/13 .... Sold
352/1000 Summit White sold in 2011 and was totaled by new owner......
92 Eclipse Gsx R.I.P
96 Eclipse Gsx Sold

Posts: 2880 | From: San Bruno,CA Home of SFO | Member Since: 04/25/08 | IP: (166.205.138.47) | Report this post to a Moderator

alansupra94
Excuse the retarded question.
4/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976020 posted 03/11/11 08:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Bad O2 sensor? Is your ECU throwing any codes? Also it is a STOCK fuel pump?



1992 Galant VR4
1996 Toyota Supra TT


Edited by alansupra94 (03/11/11 08:10 AM)

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1990ggsxnj
Member ++
1578/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976097 posted 03/11/11 01:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
along with that, is there anything else modified (ie non-stock ECU and settings).
Sometimes people say stock when they really mean "Stock engine and piping". Just looking for clarification on the setup.

If EVERYTHING is stock than:
Quoting brunoboy:

Leaky injectors? Fpr failure?





"Is that Spool Drool? EWW!"
90GGSX Blue-Chesapeake
91GVR4 Nile Black-Sidney (Sid)


Edited by 1990ggsxnj (03/11/11 01:29 PM)

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kjwillia
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976116 posted 03/11/11 03:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks for the continued support.....I am going down to the shop now to spend the afternoon investigation your suggestions in this order:
1) Leaky fuel injectors
2) Fuel Pressure Regulator
3) O2 sensor
4) Another boost leak check if 1-3 do not fix it.
will report back ASAP.
-Kevin

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Red_Bird
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976152 posted 03/11/11 07:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Check your vacuum line going into the regulator.

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kitcho
I'm A Canadian


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976669 posted 03/14/11 01:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'd like to know what your problem ends up being, keep us posted



- Adrian
1991 JDM "Evolution" VR-4

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1qkfwd
Member
1868/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 976672 posted 03/14/11 01:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Another thing to check is make sure the caps in the ecu haven't leaked out.



92 eclipse FWD [email protected]
92 Talon AWD Best et [email protected] 1.39 60'
2011 GTX series here we come!
#1868/2000 Looking for 10s on pump

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kjwillia
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977131 posted 03/16/11 03:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sorry to have gone dark on you, I have been working through all the good suggestions you’ll posted on this “Running rich” problem and I’m happy to report the issue(s) have been solved. Here is what I found and in the order that they were addressed. (I am spelling out all these acronyms the first time I use them because I had to do a some searching to figure out what they were the first time I read about them)

1) Leaky Injectors - I did a visual check both with the engine off and running for leaky injectors. I also rotated them back and forth a few degrees while the engine was running to see if anything developed….no signs of any leaks here. I had replaced the insulators/seals on both end a few years ago when I got the car.

2) Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) – I did some searching on-line to determine what the FPR output pressure should be and started down the path of machining up a fixture/tester. Before I finished the tester I came across a spare FPR from another VR4 that we had parted out. I installed it and went for a drive. Not only did the car accelerate smoothly the raw gas smell seemed to be gone. The “Running rich” issue seemed to be solved! However I was not satisfied with just smooth acceleration; I wanted to get to the bottom of the “lack of power” issue. No one drives these cars because they want smooth acceleration.

3) Oxygen (O2) Sensor – Because alansupra94 suggested it I pulled the O2 sensor and checked the resistance of the heating coil and voltage on the signal line at an elevated temperature. This checked out fine as expected since the check engine light had not been on and no codes had been thrown. For completeness and to answer alansupra94’s suggestion I should note here; to my knowledge the fuel pump is still the stock one.

4) Boost Leak Test (BLT) – Note: you need to position the crank at 30 degrees After Top Dead Center (ATDC) before you start to prevent being in a valve overlap condition; this is where both the exhaust and intake values are open at the same time in the same cylinder. I performed a BLT by starting with the area behind the Throttle Body (TB) with some soapy spray to determine if there were any leaks in the TB gasket, BISS screw, TB shaft, intake manifold gasket, injector insulators, brake booster, air side of the FPR and all vacuum lines/connections. This also lets you help hear leaks cause by the Pressure Control Valve (PCV), valve seals/guides and rings by taking off the oil fill cap. If you put your ear next to the end of the tail pipe when you pressurize the system (I do not recommend going higher than 20 psi) you can also pick up leaks cause by the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) value, valve overlap, burn or unseated valves or bent valves caused by a broken timing belt. Here is a picture of my home made BLT in place: (I can put together a quick article on what it takes to make this BLTer if it would help someone out).



5) I did find a small leak around the BISS screw. I am not sure how best to seal it but I am considering just using some silicon sealer. Any suggestions?

6) Next, believe it or not I found a leak around the replacement FPR, see picture below:



7) Since I took the spark plugs out to position the crank for the BLT and check them out for carbon deposits I re-gapped them and re-installed them. Overall the plugs looked good so it couldn’t have been running too rich. For some reason the gap was low by 0.010” so I was glad I checked them.

8) I hooked the TB hose back up and moved the BLTer to the turbo inlet and checked for leaks on the turbo housing, Blow Off Valve (BOV), intercooler ends and all intercooler plumbing and fittings. I have previously found a hole in the intercooler which was caused by a rock during this test. There will be some air leak past the turbo shaft oil seals into the crankcase but this is normal as long as there is no shaft play. During this test you can also determine the pressure level your BOV open up at. My stock one was about 17 psi. No problems found here.

9) I started to wonder what pressure my waste-gate was starting to open up at. After a few hours of forum research on this site and www.DMSTuners.com I found that the waste-gate along with the Boost Control Solenoid (BCS) device that really determines what your boost pressure will be during hard acceleration. THE BCS is the two port electronic solenoid on the stock air cleaner housing closest to the stock battery location or front of the car. A good factory waste-gate opens at about 9 psi and the BCS increase the factory boost to about 11 psi if everything is working. With a 0-15 psi pressure gauge that I pickup up W.W.Grainger I was able to verify this. (detailed steps/procedure not included). You don’t have to read very long on these forums to quickly figure out that you would be doing yourself a big favor by installing a Manual Boost Controller (MBC). These MBC’s allow you to increase your boost over the stock setting. You can also get an electronic version that can be controlled inside the car but I happened to have on that I found on a parts car we bought. It is simply a ball and spring one way check valve with adjustable spring pressure. After some playing around with the MBC on the bench with a pressure regulator, pressure gage and an air supply I was able to get an initial setting of about 12 psi to start. I then installed the MBC between the waste-gate and the hose that comes off the j-pipe on the high pressure side of the turbo. You can disconnect the BCS hose that goes to the T-fitting in the high pressure hose. This is where I installed my pressure gage to check the boost. You could also use this location to connect up a boost control gage if you want one inside your car. (all these hoses are 3/16 or 7/32 small diameter hoses). Here is a picture of the MBC I used to test out the effects ….



Conclusion: 360/2000 is no longer stock but the MBC valve did the trick; the car pull harder now then every before. The car runs so good now that I may get wrench happy next winter and rebuild the motor with a bunch of the performance mods I read about on this site. I still need to get a replacement FPR so if anyone has one for sale let me know. I checked at NAPA but they have two versions, one set at 50 psi and another set at 51 psi; both are higher than the factory spec so I hope to find a good used one.
A special thanks to brunoboy, alansupra94, 1990ggsxnj, Red Bird, kitcho and 1gkfwd for their help answering this post and the many site members that have contributed to this Technical Forum in the past and left behind a trail of very helpful trail of bread crumbs; this car wouldn’t be running without all you all.
Thanks again,
-Kevin

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kitcho
I'm A Canadian


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977211 posted 03/16/11 12:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
thanks for the reply.

I searched here and on dsmtuners, but where's the procedure for testing for leaky injectors?



- Adrian
1991 JDM "Evolution" VR-4

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1990ggsxnj
Member ++
1578/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977225 posted 03/16/11 01:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've always just removed the fuel rail keeping the injectors on and jumped the fuel pump test port to get the system to pressurize. No need to keep it on for too long. A few seconds should tell you if any of them are leaking.



"Is that Spool Drool? EWW!"
90GGSX Blue-Chesapeake
91GVR4 Nile Black-Sidney (Sid)


Edited by 1990ggsxnj (03/16/11 01:17 PM)

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kitcho
I'm A Canadian


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977322 posted 03/16/11 05:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
awesome

replaced my fpr with a known working unit. no more rough idle, no more partially burnt gas smell from the exhaust. hope to see a marked increase in fuel economy

thanks kjwilla for this thread



- Adrian
1991 JDM "Evolution" VR-4


Edited by kitcho (03/16/11 05:29 PM)

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paul j
Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977834 posted 03/18/11 03:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I for one would like an article on boost leak controller and use that you made. Good informative discussion on the thread.



Paul J
#1551

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977937 posted 03/19/11 12:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well there's your problem right there...oil cap is upside down.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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kjwillia
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 977976 posted 03/19/11 03:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I was worried that someone would call me out on the upside down oil cap and actually considered re-taking the picture before I posted it.

We paid $900 for the car a few years ago and brought it home on a trailer. I just drove it 500 miles to Oregon and it worked great. I only got 20 MPG at an average 75 MPH so I think I have some more work to do on it.

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