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Is this too much timing?????


Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 904332 posted 06/04/10 01:45 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So I installed my logger this weekend and after playing around with it I have a few questions.

How much is too much timing advance iirc my keydiver ecu has 18-22 deg of timing at WOT in some cases I am seeing as much as as 40 deg but not at WOT usually 18-26 deg here. I
think 40deg is crazy at any rpm/load in a 4g63t am I correct?(verified base timing 5 deg btdc per vfaq).The car runs strong and only 1 count of knock so far I am concerned at the amount of timing though.

I have a rewired walbro 255 and the the logger only shows 0.3v for fuel pump voltage? shouldnt this be at 12v or close? also the car at idle will go very lean to the point where my aem wideband goes ------ but smokes(too rich) under boost 10.8 afr again my ecu is set for 11:1 at WOT I know every car is different but what gives?

Any input will be greatly appreciated btw havent installed a afpr as yet still waiting for it to arrive could this be the source of my problems? I will upload a log as soon as I figure that out too Thanks..


Edited by Blown1 (07/22/10 10:04 PM)

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TurboTrader
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 904584 posted 06/04/10 10:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you're only getting that small amount of knock with that much timing, you're good to go, IMO.

Turbo 1g and Galant ECUs have a very aggressive timing ramp. The only way the timing will be pulled back is if more than 5 counts of knock are present and it starts off with 1 degree pulled working it's way up IIRC at 43 knock counts and more which is the limit of what the ECU will read.

From what I understand, more timing equals more power generally, and provided your knock sensor is working properly, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. 22 or so is the norm to see at WOT with the aggressive timing advance, but it may taper off somewhere in there and drop back down.

Under no load cruising, I could see how it could approach 40. The stock ECU naturally advances the timing in no-load conditions to conserve fuel. When you punch the throttle after it hits 40 you should see it drop right back down to 8-11 advance and gradually advance some more. Just the nature of how our ECUs work. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but what I read seems pretty normal provided base timing is correct. Also keep in mind, the timing advance the ECU shows is not actual timing. The logger will only show the timing advance estimated assuming the CAS is truly set at +5 degrees, so it is always possible the CAS could be retarded by even 1-degree.

The way I always set the CAS, and it hasn't failed me yet with a test-light, is to set the cams at perfect TDC, pull the CAS and align the notch in the CAS (sprocket for lack of a better term), with the dot in the CAS body. Being careful not to move the sprocket, push it directly in, and timing should be dead on at 5-degrees advance. Slightly different from the VFAQ, but it does work flawlessly in my experience.

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 904853 posted 06/06/10 08:32 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
On a 100% stock GVR-4 chip, you will see >40* advance from 3000 rpm+ on the first 3 load maps. The DSM maps actually have 45* advance on the lowest load map. I don't generally touch the lowest maps, where you are usually under vacuum, not boost.

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 904894 posted 06/06/10 12:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks Jeff so it looks like from the timing side I am ok.
Just need the damn afpr so I can figure out why its so lean
at idle yet so rich at WOT. Jeff is there any possibility
that I could have a problem with this ecu my tuner seems to
think thats where the problem lies. I told him keydiver does
not makes mistakes he laughs. Also is it common to only see
0.3v with a rewired pump or am i missing something from the logs
the fuel pressure looks good and rises or decreases depending on
throttle position but the pump voltage stays put???? Jeff if its
ok with you I would like to send you a log to see if im missing anything


Edited by Blown1 (06/06/10 12:50 PM)

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 905446 posted 06/08/10 12:41 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I will try and reset the cas per madbeachdsm instructions. The only thing that still concerns
me is why this car runs so lean at idle yet so rich on the top end. I thought not having a afpr
(now on the way now)would have the opposite effect iirc if the stock regulator is getting overrun
at idle shouldnt it be rich instead of lean or do I have it backwards. For the life of me I cannot
get this damn thing to idle at anywhere near 14.7 afr at idle and how does it go all the way to 10.7
or so if my ecu is chipped for 11:1 at WOT. The car has rock steady idle a few seconds after startup
on my wide band gauge. Will adjusting the biss screw help or am i on the wrong track here?
Thanks again.

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 905517 posted 06/08/10 09:11 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What are your fueltrims doing? The EVO MAS isn't hacked in any way, right? No missing honeycomb? Has the adjustment screw been touched? You have done a boost leak test? What is the ISC step position when the engine is fully warmed up, no accessories or fans running?
The Delphi 85lb injectors vary quite a bit in flow, but on average they are around 840cc. The closest value in the Global Fuel is 832cc, which is what I set it for. The next higher step is 853cc, which may be closer to what yours flow, which would lean you out another 2.5%.
The fuelpump voltage in MMcD doesn't work on our cars, ignore it!!

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 905545 posted 06/08/10 10:34 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have the answers to some of these questions I will complete the
rest of the testing and get back to you today thanks again
Dunstan....


Edited by Blown1 (06/08/10 11:06 AM)

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906538 posted 06/11/10 01:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting keydiver:

What are your fuel trims doing? The EVO MAS isn't hacked in any way, right? No missing honeycomb? Has the adjustment screw been touched? You have done a boost leak test? What is the ISC step position when the engine is fully warmed up, no accessories or fans running?
The Delphi 85lb injectors vary quite a bit in flow, but on average they are around 840cc. The closest value in the Global Fuel is 832cc, which is what I set it for. The next higher step is 853cc, which may be closer to what yours flow, which would lean you out another 2.5%.
The fuel pump voltage in MMcD doesn't work on our cars, ignore it!!




So the fuel trims seems to stay put low med and high around 81.5% I know this is very rich(no afpr yet )
The low trim will go up to about 88% but everything else except the FT02 stays put. No missing honeycomb on the evo9
mas and yes my biss screw has been touched. The isc step position reads 0 at idle when warmed up and no accessories
running it cycle from 0-100+ when cruising or under boost. I'm still trying to get to my friends garage to complete the
boost leak test (no compressor). As of yesterday the car is mysteriously now boosting up to 20psi+ and the only thing
I have done is back the biss screw out a bit.I haven't yet installed my lsp mbc??? My afpr has still not yet arrived.
I can see how the afpr may fix the rich condition at WOT but why is it still lean at idle? I thought fpr overrun makes the
car run rich not lean am I correct or do I have things backwards.

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TurboTrader
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906547 posted 06/11/10 03:51 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Where you mentioned .3 volts, you're referring to the front O2 sensor, if I understand that right?

The front O2 (not the wideband), should cycle anywhere from around .2 to .8 or higher depending on AFR. If it is staying put at a certain voltage, or reading something like .2 volts at all time, it's likely bad if it's not fluctuating steadily. If it is a Bosch O2, I would be even further suspect of it. The Denso I believe is the OEM brand. I've had so many Bosch units go bad and replaced by Autozone, they were getting sick of seeing me every few months. Finally it got old, and I ordered a Denso from sparkplugs.com, it has held up well for a solid 6-months so far. I think the main issue with the Bosch is they don't like the direct heat from the turbo and in the O2 housing. The Bosch I had further down on the down-pipe for the wideband always held up pretty well.

So, I would definitely test the O2 to make sure it's not bad. That can throw alot of things off, and especially cause you to run rich as well.

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906565 posted 06/11/10 08:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
OK, I think you are giving conflicting information here:
You say the LOW, MID, and HIGH TRIMs are all around 81, which would indicate that you are at least 5% too rich overall. But, you are saying you are too lean at idle, that you can't get 14.7:1, when in fact your fueltrims indicate you are too rich at idle. I suspect your wideband isn't giving you a reliable reading at idle. I don't know why people insist on trying to use a wideband to get their idle/closedloop AFR set to 14.7:1, when the ECU will do that automatically using the narrowband sensor. In fact, any changes you try to force are just going to be reversed by the closedloop function of the ECU. A wideband is not really to be used to setup closedloop, that's what you have fueltrims and a logger for. The wideband is fine at reading WOT, and IMHO that's all they should be used for. I also suspect that perhaps your wideband sensor is mounted too far downstream, where it isn't getting hot enough at idle to give you an accurate reading. I had the same issue with my PLX.

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906713 posted 06/11/10 05:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Madbeachdsm its the fuel pump voltage thats reading 0.3v Jeff said to just ignore that does not compute
on the logger on our cars and I just bought a new O2 sensor. Jeff as far as the reading this is what I
am getting from the logger and the wideband but I agree with you how can it be lean at idle as high as 17
and then real rich on the top end . I had a posted a question earlier about the location of the
wideband sensor seems everyone agreed that under the car just below the firewall was best idk. As far as
the fuel trims its what I see from the logs. I will try posting one when I figure out how to do that.Now these guys are telling me they are missing a part from my afpr kit need to wait until monday now wtf I want to get this car running properly.


Edited by Blown1 (06/11/10 05:49 PM)

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AnotherNewb
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906731 posted 06/11/10 07:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you ordered a fuel lab kit from stm with black fittings be ready to wait. Ordered one for 1947 and after a week of no comunications, they finally sent one with a 45* fitting instead of a 90*. Unfortunatly, the 45* fitting wouldn't clear the cam cover. Bitched to them about that and was told they would refund $19.00 and told me to order the last 90* russell fitting off of amazon.com, for $26.00 shipped Not very happy with them. They said they have been waiting for the 90's for a month.... If you ordered different then I just wasted my time



Every terrorist killed is a victory for Wookalar

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906743 posted 06/11/10 08:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Blown1:

everyone agreed that under the car just below the firewall was best idk.




That's where I had mine located also, and it cooled off too quickly. The exhaust gases aren't quite hot enough, so at idle it wouldn't always give me a reading. Just ignore it. IMO, the fueltrims are telling the real story: you are too rich.

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906902 posted 06/12/10 05:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So Jeff where did you move your wideband sensor to?


Edited by Blown1 (06/12/10 05:44 PM)

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906903 posted 06/12/10 05:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting AnotherNewb:

If you ordered a fuel lab kit from stm with black fittings be ready to wait. Ordered one for 1947 and after a week of no comunications, they finally sent one with a 45* fitting instead of a 90*. Unfortunatly, the 45* fitting wouldn't clear the cam cover. Bitched to them about that and was told they would refund $19.00 and told me to order the last 90* russell fitting off of amazon.com, for $26.00 shipped Not very happy with them. They said they have been waiting for the 90's for a month.... If you ordered different then I just wasted my time




went with a aeromotive kit from maperformance said the rest of the kit should be in by monday we will see I guess.

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AnotherNewb
flutterdumper


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906910 posted 06/12/10 06:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cool, have you figured out where your going to mount the FPR?



Every terrorist killed is a victory for Wookalar

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906938 posted 06/12/10 09:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Blown1:

So Jeff where did you move your wideband sensor to?




I didn't. I just got used to the fact I couldn't see the true AFR all the time. It still worked fine for WOT which is all I really cared about.

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 906991 posted 06/13/10 02:04 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So theoretically if you were going to move it where would you move it to?????


Edited by Blown1 (06/13/10 02:06 AM)

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 907006 posted 06/13/10 04:43 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Jeff were you referring to the maf screw or biss screw above?

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 907253 posted 06/14/10 11:08 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
MAS screw.

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keydiver
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 907254 posted 06/14/10 11:14 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Blown1:

So theoretically if you were going to move it where would you move it to?????




I wouldn't. Its very tough to find a spot for the bung and O2 to clear. As I said, just ignore it at idle.

Quoting Blown1:

the only thing I have done is back the biss screw out a bit.




If the ISC step is already at zero, you don't want to back the screw out even further, that will cause idle surge issues. You want to turn it in until you see 5-10 steps at idle at most, IMO.

Quoting Blown1:

Just need the damn afpr so I can figure out why its so lean at idle yet so rich at WOT.





BTW, I don't consider 10.8:1 to be "so rich" when the openloop map targets are set to 11.0:1. That 0.2 difference is so small as to be almost insignificant, and probably much less than the accuracy of your wideband. There are way too many things that could easily add up to throw off the AFR by 0.2, like injectors that flow slightly more, fuel pressure being 1 psi too high, MAS calibration, type of air filter used, etc. That is why the factory builds in the fueltrims, to compensate for parts that are at both extremes of the manufacturing tolerances, aging, and wear of components. But, the fueltrims don't work in openloop, and it can be a little trickier to hit the desired AFR, so the factory over compensates by making the openloop maps a very rich 9.5:1. Of course, they also do this to keep the combustion chambers cooler and reduce knock, but it is highly inefficient.


Edited by keydiver (06/14/10 11:29 AM)

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 907373 posted 06/14/10 05:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting keydiver:

MAS screw.



As far as I know the mass screw has not been touched. I will remove look at it and verify tomorrow.

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 907374 posted 06/14/10 05:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok I will adjust the screw back as recommended.

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Blown1
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 917301 posted 07/22/10 10:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting AnotherNewb:

Cool, have you figured out where your going to mount the FPR?



Mounted on firewall dead center where most people mounts it

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navyvr4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 917784 posted 07/25/10 11:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
i have mine mounted right next to my cam gear cover on the drivers side

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