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Car won't run after first drive


blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846355 posted 11/04/09 11:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So I finally got everything on #642 finished and got it on the ground. It has been running for about a month, but had loose ends to button up (brakes, fenders, headalight brackets, ect.). Finally finished everything up and took it for a ride on saturday and it ran pretty well (though rich which ended up being that my fuel pressure had creeped up), though it stalled once and wouldn't hot start. Bump started it and it was fine. Drove home fine. Ran fine the rest of the evening (3-4 times) while making more adjustments. Came out Sunday and it wouldn't turn over. Haven't gotten it to start since.

I checked and I'm getting fuel and spark (atleast until the injectors get soaked). Setup is 1G MAS (swapping in GM 3" w/ trans eventually), 510 injectors, walbro 255, supra fuel filter, XS FPR (w/ 60psi autometer pressure gauge), 16g, RRE built downflow IC w/ custom piping, 1g BOV, and SAFC. Has non e-prom ECU which had new CAPS in it too.

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm now on time crunch as this is to be my winter car and it started snowing earlier (All I have are 17" w/ summer tires for my VW).


Edited by blue642 (11/04/09 11:32 AM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846357 posted 11/04/09 11:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You say it won't turn over? Is the battery dead?
Or does it turn over, but won't start?
Do you have a logger?
Does it sound like it's trying to start or does it sound like it's just spinning over?

General rule is that you need three things to run an engine, fuel, spark and compression. If you have fuel and spark, your compression maybe bad. If that's good then you have either an under or over abundance of fuel or your spark is firing at the wrong time. Since your getting spark, I would assume your CAS is good. Also the car would "run" with a bad MAF.



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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846371 posted 11/04/09 12:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cranking but won't turn over. Battery is good and holding charge (also periodically charging it inbetween sections to make sure its got plenty of juice).
Don't have looger yet which is making it harder to diagnose. Getting my sisters old palm from my parents house once they find it and getting started on making a cable.
Sounds like its trying to start on the first couple cranks (hear a couple of cylinders fire), then it starts to just spins (no audible firing). Haven't gotten to do a compression check on it, but based off how it was running, it can't be to bad (though it might be getting some fuel washout at this point. Already plan on adding a spoonful to the cylinders).
Deffinitely not under fueled, but maybe overfueling and flooding. Don't see how that would suddenly be an issue though since it hasn't been so far and its been running for weeks. Fuel pressure is at 36-37psi base right now.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846377 posted 11/04/09 12:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Unplug your MAS and try to start it.



Ryan Hertz

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846406 posted 11/04/09 01:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Will try when I get home. Any other ideas? No computer access at home so trying to get as many suggestions to try as possible

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toybreaker Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846442 posted 11/04/09 03:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Be sure to check the wiring for the ecu coolant temp sender at the t-stat housing.

Those wires can get brittle and break, and then the ecu will "think" it's colder than it is. If that's the case, the car will run pig rich, and be hard to start. If those wires are damaged, pm me your shipping addy, and I can get you a pigtail in the mail.

A logger will be very helpfull in diagnosing this problem.



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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846704 posted 11/05/09 06:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Disconnected MAS and eventually got it to start. Took a ton of cranking and I eventually had to jump it, but you could hear it firing more consistantly while cranking. Unfortunitely after running for a few minutes and then setting into an idle, it stalled and I couldn't get it to start again after that (probably because the battery was drained). Charged it over night and tried this morning and it just spun with no audible firing

I hooked up the MAS for a minute while it was running and pulled up the signal on my AFC and it was reading 3 HZ, same as when disconnected. Didn't seem to run any different between connected and disconnected either. So what does this mean? Obviously bad MAS signal, but no signal is no signal whether hooked or unhooked, unless its one of the other sensor in the MAS (barametric pressure...not sure what else) thats throwing it off at startup.

Thought about the coolant temp sensor already. Don't think its the wires since it appeared that there was about a 2 feet of each one replaced when I had the harness apart. Wires looked good, as did the connections on both sides (think it had the speaker connector on sensor side because it had no rubber seal). I'm going to pull the sensor today and measure across the terminals to see what I get.

I know. I really wish I had one, but hopefully will by the end of the week. It'll probably be something that pops right out once hooked up too.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846733 posted 11/05/09 08:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well you have found one known issue. The MAS signal is bad somehow. Maybe the AFC is disconnected. I would figure that out first. It may not get your car running, or it could. Either way you'll need to fix that before you could even drive it.



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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846747 posted 11/05/09 09:01 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
AFC wiring is good. Double checked all of it already. MAS was working properly before so not sure whats up with it. I'll check it the harness at the MAS to see if the harness is ok or if its just the MAS. If MAS, I might just bite the bullet and swap in the GM MAF and translator in draw through format for now. Need to get filter and make/get a new case for the translator first though. It has no top and both mounting tabs are broke off.
Either way, What would be causing the MAS to cause starting issues? Doesn't start using those numbers, atleast airflow, until after startup does it?

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846758 posted 11/05/09 10:01 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think your right about that. It maybe two separate issues which could be related. Ah diagnosis work.... got to love it.

I told you to fix the known issue, it may help. At least you'll have one less issue to deal with.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846766 posted 11/05/09 10:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would have checked for continuity between the wire end that connects to the sensor and end that connects to ecu. It's a simple test that can save you trouble later when you've swapped to translator and still have the same issue. You've stated you replaced some wiring within the harness. Was the MAF wiring part of that at all?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846794 posted 11/05/09 11:17 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I suggested unplugging the MAS because I've found, for example, when you blow off an IC pipe (stupid rich, losing metered air) that you can get the car to run and drive (under very low load) in limp home mode (no MAS). Basically wanted to see if the problems were related to the air metering or loss of metered air.

If you really want to go GM MAF I have a 3" one that I'll sell for cheap. (no translator)



Ryan Hertz

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 846798 posted 11/05/09 11:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I didn't replace any of the wiring in the harness. I did remove all ABS, cruise control, AC, power steering, security (disabled at ETACS and removed hood switch), and emissions (EGR, fuel pressure solenoid, wastegate solenoid) wiring. Temp sensor wiring had already been replaced and was the only thing they had done well. I rewired the AFC as it was hacked as well as boost and A/F gauges since I relocated them.

Already planned on checking continuity when I get home. The wiring troubleshootings turning into a pain since its dark around 5. Even with a couple 500W lights. The question still is whats causing the starting issue. Though this does appear to be a problem, It doesn't appear to be the root one.

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dsmkid
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 847079 posted 11/05/09 10:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have been having the same problems for about the past year.. I checked everything but could not find any problems, so I finally pulled the entire engine side wiring harness out and unwrapped everything! I found at least 10 broken, cracked, spliced wires. So right now I am in the process of COMPLETELY rewiring it! Should be done by this weekend and hopefully have it back in on sunday. I will let you know if the problems persist. Please post if you find a problem... Some of the problem wires did follow to the mas. So im praying!!!! Ill keep updated on this post!

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 847133 posted 11/06/09 05:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So did continuity check on MAS wiring yesterday. All wires have good continuity and its getting the 12V and 5V power at the connector so bad MAS, not wiring. Pulled MAS apart to see if it was anything simple. Nothing visibly wrong, but it smells like burnt electrical in the brown box in it. Guessing its on one of the two smaller boards that you can't see without pulling the board, which appears to require desoldering pins. Not worth the time so I'm going to throw maf-t on.
Though I'm not sure if there will be any interest, this means I might have the HKS filter kit for 1G up for grabs. Probably post feeler once I get some pics.

Also checked temp sensor and wiring. Sensor appears to be tapering resistance properly, so its fine. Checked continuity across wires and they're good. Went to check voltage and stumbled across an odd issue.
5V as its suppose to be when ignition in Start position. Sweet. 8V when engines in start position and its not plugged into the ECU Was reading 7-8V at both ECU plug and temp sensor side when it was unhooked from ECU and temp sensor. According to the MFI wiring diagram in the service manual, there is nothing in between the ECU and sensor. Traced the wire as far as I could in the engine bay and nothing is spliced into it. Same from under dash, which means that its somewhere against firewall, behind heater that will require dash removal to get to. Didn't want to deal with dash last night so bipassed it and ran wire straight from ECU pin to sensor for now.

Also, did manage to get it running again last night, before I got to much troubleshoot done. Ran fine, with fast, surge free idle with the idle switch disconnected (bad ISC probably. Haven't checked coils yet). Still couldn't get it to start a second time. Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated, because the deeper I dig, the more confused I get.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 847159 posted 11/06/09 08:14 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
There's two yellow with green stripe wires in that bundle...(musta been a sale on green/yellow wires when these cars were made )

Try putting a male blade connector in that half of the ecu sender, and then ground that to the head.

Turn the key on, (briefly) and if the temp gauge needle moves to full hot, you just found the problem.

The dash uses a voltage stabilzers on the fuel and temp gauges. It stabilises the voltage at less than 12v, in order to have a stable reference voltage for the gauges as the charging systenm voltage varies. Since you're reading ~8v on the ecu sender, my guess is it's actually the 'ole switcharoo on those two wires, and the wire that's presently in the ecu connector actually belongs on the gauge temp sender...

If that's the case, de-pin that wire, put a female connector on it, and put it on the single sender unit for the gauge.

Then, take the single yellow/green wire that was on the gauge sender, and pin it into the ecu sender connector.

Happiness and joy should result.

[edit]You could also remove fuse #9 (red, 10amp) fuse in the box by the drivers feet, and ohm the wire out to the gauge sender, (key OFF), and it'll read continuity. The current path will go thru the gauge, so it will read some resistance. (the ecu sender wire will read nada)

Then you can check the other wire by going to the ecu, and checking continuity at pin #20. (key off, ecu connector unplugged) The gauge wire will read nada.

Hopefully, that will help you verify what goes where.



Edited by toybreaker (11/06/09 08:34 AM)

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 847178 posted 11/06/09 09:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I did note that there were two of the yellow and green wires. Didn't have curcuit printout for the second one figured it was to the gauge. The temp in my gauge cluster has been reading properly though. Would it read properly if it was reading off the wrong temp sensor? Either way I'll look into that when I get home.

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848092 posted 11/09/09 07:19 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
She's running I would like to give a big thanks to John (Toybreaker) for helping me walk through some troubleshooting. MAS signal ended up being the pin pushing out of the socket inside the AFC (guess my 1G MAS is probably fine, but I'm leaving the MAF-T on). Swapped out starters for a slightly fresher one which helped too. Still having issues with warm starts. Cars fine to drive to work (which I did today), but not confidence inspiring for running errands, or even stopping at the gas station.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848180 posted 11/09/09 11:58 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
John

BTW, warm start hesitation is a typical problem with our cars.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848182 posted 11/09/09 12:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Warm start issues are common when the Fuel pressure regulator solenoid is removed. At least it happens more often anyway. It's not a real issue and I would just used to feathering the gas pedal. You'll get good at it.



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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848186 posted 11/09/09 12:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Mine isn't a warm start hesitation, it just literally won't warm start. I did read about it being an issue with the fuel pressure solenoid being removed cause issues with warm starts, but not complete faiure to do so. Haven't tried since I got everything adjusted, but hopefully it'll get better. The fact that the engines been sitting for the better part of 2 years and only has ~150 miles since the head was rebuilt probably doesn't help.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848211 posted 11/09/09 01:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Get a datalogger on it so you can see what the ecu sees. A complete no start when hot is way different. You could be facing heat soak in the ignition transistor or coil packs, or even an injector/pump leaking down and a vapor lock occurance in the rail once the fuel is depressurized. Checking the sensor values will help to figure that out, plus a fuel pressure tester may be needed.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848217 posted 11/09/09 02:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Still working on sourcing a datalogger. Parents are still trying to find sister's old palm. Its getting spark so doubt its the coil pack heat soaking (and I stole it out of my roommates perfectly running laser, so it had no prior issues). Possible on fuel vapor in rail. System no longer has check valve at the pump (didn't have one when I got it) so it does depressurize when the car is shut off. Already noted that as the cause that it doesn't get moving much for the first couple seconds of cranking. Never really considered the potential vaporization issue of it.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848218 posted 11/09/09 02:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The rail sits on top a hot engine after driving it, I bet that could be an issue for you. Fuel systems need to be kept under pressure to prevent vapor lock. Missing your check valve would do so.



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#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

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blue642
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 848222 posted 11/09/09 02:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
That makes sense. Hadn't realy thought of it much. Anyone know the part # for check valve? Got a few things to order from JNZ so probably just add it to the list.

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