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One step closer to selling it.


CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651750 posted 05/29/08 10:22 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I got home yesterday barely able to shift the car into gear.

for some reason, I've had to screw the clutch rod into the master cylinder about a turn every month for the last few months. The engagement point keeps getting closer to the floor. No leaky slave boot, not much weep from the rubber stopper o nthe back of the master cylinder, bled it 3 different times, stainless line.

For the last few weeks, the engagement point starts on the floor, then moves up near the top during my 45 minute commute. In between, it moves all around. I've got the rod screwed about as far into the master as it'll go, evidensed by the fact that I can barely see the end of the rod because it's turned so far into the clutch pedal connection.

WTF is going on here? My last OEM master cyl did the same thing, so I replaced with this stock 1G unit sometime late last fall. I've ordered a new unit from Advance Auto, hoping that a manufacturer switch may produce better results.

I've never seen the inside of a master cylinder, but is it possible that the rod is screwed too far into the cylinder bore, resulting in something funky going on with the plunger/stopper/seal, producing the moving engagement point I've experienced?

Could crankwalk be an issue? I'm pulling the transmission this weekend to swap in my spare and inspect the flywheel/clutch parts. Could a loose pressure plate cause this? I'm fucking fed up with this car, and am driving my track car to work for now, which sucks donkey balls and isn't all that safe to do.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651752 posted 05/29/08 10:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Dude, tell me about it! I'm having the same trouble. The next thing I'm going to do it switch to the bigger (green) slave cylinder to see if that makes a difference. I just looked under the dash last week and when I push the clutch pedal in, the pushrod goes into the master cylinder a good 1/4 inch before I feel any pressure plate action through the pedal. What's up with these crappy clutch issues with this car? I've been trying to sort it out for about three years!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Peter

Can't polish a turd.

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jepherz Galant VR4.org Moderator
Too Clean
1881/2000
50/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651763 posted 05/29/08 10:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You have enough problems with your car, which should be expected when modifying past a tested product put together by engineers with hours of testing while using possible knock-off parts. Sell the damn thing and get another Miata if you truly think it's the CAR...

With that said, per your description, since the pedal engagement gets further up as you drive the car, it sounds like it HAS TO BE a hydraulic issue. There are then 3 main parts to this system; master, slave, and the lines that connect the two. To answer your question about the master rod being extended into the seal, no, that's not possible. You have mentioned that you've tried numerous master cylinders to no avail. That leaves either a leak in the line somewhere or the system isn't fully bled, or something is up with the slave cylinder.

Have you tried replacing the slave? Looked for leaks around there? What is the status of the lines?



-Jeff
1881/2000
50/1000

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651780 posted 05/29/08 11:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I replaced the slave with the OEM unit when I did the master last fall. It appears to be working fine. The lines all look good; no leaks or sinking fluid level in the reservoir or fluid coming from any of the components on the ends.

The lack of fluid loss has led me to believe that it's a problem with the master. Anyone have a diagram that illustrates the parts inside of it?

(I like to complain alot when I can't figure out a problem, and this qualifies. Another Miata, no. But something to tow it on a trailer with may be the GVR4 replacement once I'm driven over the edge by the next issue that's bound to pop up soon)



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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jepherz Galant VR4.org Moderator
Too Clean
1881/2000
50/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651784 posted 05/29/08 11:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Your description tells me that the fluid is going somewhere, obvious or not. I don't have a diagram for you but a master isn't all that complicated. You should be able to pull it out and figure out how it comes apart.

Have you checked underneath the slave piston boot for leaking? On the inside of the cabin for leaking from the master?



-Jeff
1881/2000
50/1000

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Muskrat
Senior Member
665/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651789 posted 05/29/08 11:17 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You said you've checked the master and slave, and they look ok. Check the line. Stainless steel lines aren't leak proof. Don't rule anyting out until you've checked it over thoroughly.



Brian L.
91 Galant VR-4 #665/2000

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651794 posted 05/29/08 11:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Will do. F'ing car.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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Garfield Wright
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651801 posted 05/29/08 11:31 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm curious to know how this plays out as someone I know is having the same problem. Which clutch setup do you have? Check if the rod in the slave is bent or broken.

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Hksvr4
The New Vettel


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651803 posted 05/29/08 11:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Did you check the play of the pedal? It could be that you need to replace the clutch pedal assemebly. This problem haunted me for years. If you were to follow the clutch pedal assembly you would locate a bolt at the end of the rod. It's usually above the gas pedal. That bolt comes loose and causing the clutch pedal to have play. A quick fix, is to tighten the bolt with a 14 or 12 socket. I forget. Most likey you have to replace the assembly. Which I did. I welded the nut on to the new assembly. It sucked cause it took alot of hours.

btw, you can replace the slave, master, line a hundred times and still have the same problem. Trust me, I've done it.

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651811 posted 05/29/08 11:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
ClutchNet Red 2x pp and the ClutchNet sprung 6-puck, with a 2G stainless line to the slave cyl.

Currently I have to start the car in reverse if I want to use reverse, and even so it creeps a little bit with the clutch pressed down to the floor with excessive force. Shifting coming home yesterday was horrendous, which is why it's sitting in my front yard and I'm driving the Miata for the rest of the week with ear plugs. Shifting got better with refv matching and some double clutching, but that's a pita and it still ker-chunks into gear. I'm trashing my built Shep tranny, and can't wait to see how much the magnetic drain plug has picked up when I drain it on Friday night.

I've also had it with the mainstream trans fluids we all seem to gravitate towards. The spare is getting SWEPCO-201, an OEM/recommended fluid for Porsches. I think running a shockproof mix for the first year after getting my trans back from Shep killed the synchros, now that it is known that those fluids don't work well with brass.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

Posts: 8936 | From: West Simsbury, CT | Member Since: 08/30/04 | IP: (198.105.0.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651813 posted 05/29/08 11:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Hksvr4:

Did you check the play of the pedal?




Hmmm, not yet. The pedal did have some side to side movement that it didn't used to have when I was kicking it yesterday. Are you talking about the rod adjustment bolt, or some bolt that holds the pedal assembly to the firewall/underdash?



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

Posts: 8936 | From: West Simsbury, CT | Member Since: 08/30/04 | IP: (198.105.0.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

Rausch Galant VR4.org Moderator
Rock Star Status


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651816 posted 05/29/08 11:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It's not uncommon in other applications, for the fluid to push past the diaphragm in the master, this, without getting to the point of leaking externally, would change the total 'throw' of the unit, and move the engagement point. Albeit a bit a time.


As stated above, Maybe get it out and apart, and see what's what....That would be my guess....



Rance lives here...
Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru, then sold out there too.


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Hksvr4
The New Vettel


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651834 posted 05/29/08 12:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Are you talking about the rod adjustment bolt, or some bolt that holds the pedal assembly to the firewall/underdash




If I can recall, it's where the clutch pedal return spring is located.

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464/2K
<3s Rance and self distrusts
464/2000
1025/2000
553/1000
788/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651842 posted 05/29/08 12:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
just sell it, sounds you like ate some whaabugars and french cries



_Ricky-
464/2000
788/1000
'95 Lancer Evolution III

2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651856 posted 05/29/08 01:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah, I've been eating that for about a year now



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

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kartorium
hillbilly racer
334/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651857 posted 05/29/08 01:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
When I had issues like that it turned out to be the clutch pedal assembly. Mine was actually broken in half and was causing the firewall to flex which made the travel of the rod really inconsistent. When the pedal was depressed the master cylinder would actually get pushed into the engine bay a little bit causing the actual stroke of the rod to be greatly reduced. As the problem got worse I kept having to adjust the pedal, then finally I realized the bastard was broken.

Does your firewall move when you press the clutch in? Have someone watch very closely. Does everything squeak and grone when you press the clutch? If you have these two symptoms I'd say the assembly is causing your problems.

What I have described is entirely different from the typical pedal assembly problems. The typical problem comes from shaft that the clutch pedal rotates on IIRC.

If you are thinking that the master, slave, and line are fine, then it pretty much has to be this.

Shit, you might also check to see if your transmission is pulling away from the block when the clutch is pressed in. Watch very closely for movement, this would cause similar problems.

Other than that I spose the bolts could be undone on the pressure plate

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AWDnot2
Senior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651883 posted 05/29/08 03:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting 464/2K:

just sell it, sounds you like ate some whaabugars and french cries




Def Leppard sucks!

hahaaa. Joe Dirt rules!



Roger
'05 Evo VIII MR (Sold)
'11 Edge Sport AWD
2007 Husqvarna 510SMR



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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651913 posted 05/29/08 04:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just ordered a new pedal assembly just in case. It's cheap ($70), so I figured I may as well replace it now since I've already done most of the rest of the car since I've owned it.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

Posts: 8936 | From: West Simsbury, CT | Member Since: 08/30/04 | IP: (198.105.0.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

Hksvr4
The New Vettel


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651946 posted 05/29/08 04:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I rather do a clutch R/R instead.

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Olson
Pwnd by Rance.
338/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651966 posted 05/29/08 05:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
CY ive been going through the same problems but to an extream. i have a fidanza fly wheel and a 2900 act setup . after doing some pulls and dataloging the clutch let go. the friction center section completely let go. the cause was an over throw of the clutch pedal be extreamly carefull to not get to much throw other wise the pressure plate fingers will come in contact with the friction plate. i guess this is a common problem with the act seires clutches. so i went with an exedy unit and the fidanza fly the problem just started to come back i could HEAR the fingers making contact with the center section. also the fly wheel warped on my. At this moment im putting in a RRE no name 11lb flywheel. Also prior to putting in the exedy i replaced the slave and master and put an a extended rod on the master cylinder fixed the problem but had to much throw. also i think the fidanza flywheel wasnt steped right for the setup i had. My pedel box is the orginal one but has NO play in it at all. so hopefully the correct steped flywheel and all fresh clutch compnets are good. Also have a braided line with a teflon coating on it that was pressure tested at some crazy # .

i think the next step for me is a new pedel assembly and looking at the fire wall like someone mentioned.
I to am at the point of selling but you know what. I know whats been replaced on the car i know what shoulD NOT brake and there shouldnt be anything else that can brake with all the parts that have been replaced or upgraded. but its all so a 17 year old car and its going to have more maintiance than a 5 year old car.

Good luck CY i feel your pain



338/2000
05 TDI Wagon
88 Raider

"Oh, and if you want to build your status and rank, go play some WoW. Come back when you're ready to talk cars". Qship

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Luke
Senior Member
201/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 651993 posted 05/29/08 06:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hi CP:

Not sure if you already aware of this, but the stock clutch master cylinder has a built-in self-adjusting mechanism.
For the self-adjusting to work ( for example, your pedal engagement should not get higher as the clutch disc worns out and becomes thinner ), there need to be some freeplay at the top of the clutch pedal.

Instead of keep screwing the clutch rod in the direction of *into* the master cylinder, try backing it *out of* the master cylinder, until you get some freeplay at the top of the clutch pedal. Maybe that will get the self-adjusting-mechanism working properly. It did for me...



2.3L 6-bolt, BJ's ported 2G head, TRE tranny, GT3076R, 255lph, 850cc, AFPR, ROM emulator, Aquamist, ETS FMIC, LSD rr Quaife ft diff, WL swaybars, Bilstein, HKS 264/272 cams, ZT2 WBO2


Edited by Luke (05/29/08 06:39 PM)

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 652213 posted 05/30/08 10:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks guys. All great comments. I'm pulling the trans tongiht and will see if I've got clutch issues when it comes out. I've got a bad seal on the input shaft (I think) anyway, as I've had some fluid seepage from the shift fork boot hole in the bellhousing for about 6 months now.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

Posts: 8936 | From: West Simsbury, CT | Member Since: 08/30/04 | IP: (198.105.0.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
855/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 652275 posted 05/30/08 01:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well, sorry to tell you this, but the input shaft seal has to be replaced from inside the trans.



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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CP
Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 652279 posted 05/30/08 01:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It's probably going back to Shep for an overhaul in the winter anyway. If the trans swap solves my driveline issues, then it's definitely the center diff. That's mostly the reason for the trans swap tonight. If that doesn't solve it, then I'm out of ideas, having already rebuilt the rear diff, driveshaft several times, and tried 3 different t-cases.



-Cy
Resident Spec Miata Racer | '93 Audi UrS4 | '04 Ram CTD | #1788/2000: SOLD

Posts: 8936 | From: West Simsbury, CT | Member Since: 08/30/04 | IP: (198.105.0.4) | Report this post to a Moderator

vr4underboost
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 652280 posted 05/30/08 01:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Quoting olson:

CY ive been going through the same problems but to an extream. i have a fidanza fly wheel and a 2900 act setup . after doing some pulls and dataloging the clutch let go. the friction center section completely let go. the cause was an over throw of the clutch pedal be extreamly carefull to not get to much throw other wise the pressure plate fingers will come in contact with the friction plate. i guess this is a common problem with the act seires clutches. so i went with an exedy unit and the fidanza fly the problem just started to come back i could HEAR the fingers making contact with the center section. also the fly wheel warped on my. At this moment im putting in a RRE no name 11lb flywheel. Also prior to putting in the exedy i replaced the slave and master and put an a extended rod on the master cylinder fixed the problem but had to much throw. also i think the fidanza flywheel wasnt steped right for the setup i had. My pedel box is the orginal one but has NO play in it at all. so hopefully the correct steped flywheel and all fresh clutch compnets are good. Also have a braided line with a teflon coating on it that was pressure tested at some crazy # .






The problem is called "over center" and it is caused by the clutch having too much pre load and causing the diaphragm fingers on the clutch to go past the center point and collapse on the disc. Not a very common problem on any ACT clutch or Exedy one unless the clutch isn't adjusted properly. If I have the rod on my car adjusted too far out I can make the springs touch the diaphragm every time I push the pedal in.

Every Fidanza flywheel I've ever seen has always had the correct step for DSM's/VR4's. So unless they've changed how they make the flywheels or have a bad batch I don't see how that would be an issue. What is more likely to have happened is as a result of the preload condition is the following: the preload condition on the clutch would have caused the disc to drag on the flywheel and pressure plate because it's the same as driving around with your foot on the pedal constantly. Eventually the heat generated from that would cause the flywheel to warp.

Daryl

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