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Who has ever heard of this in meth injection


curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637762 posted 04/22/08 04:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Found 4 gallons of the stuff in a bunch of stuff the neighbor gave me when he moved last weekend..

This could be good for emergency races and usually availible at Wal Mart or camping stores. Read the stuff below about WHITE GAS/ camp fuel /coleman gas.
I know Napthia has been used before just not sure about this mixture. Chemically smart hydrocarbon guys chime in.

Warning don't go running for a gallon until we have discussed it all the way. Shit is very volital and doesn't need to be stored in your car period. IT has a flash point of 0 degrees so it will burn anywhere.

retards burning snow on you tube.

blowing up a can on you tube

Found this on a material data safety sheet.
This product contains:
*Cyclohexane, CAS # 110-82-7, OSHA-300 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
*Nonane, CAS # 111-84-2, ACGIH-200 ppm
*Octane, CAS # 111-65-9, OSHA-400 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
*Heptane, CAS # 142-82-5, OSHA-500 ppm, ACGIH-400 ppm
*Pentane, CAS # 109-66-0, OSHA-1000 ppm, ACGIH-600 ppm

APPEARANCE
Clear, green liquid.
ODOR
Petroleum Naphtha.
ODOR THRESHOLD
N.D.
BASIC PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
PHYSICAL STATE: Liquid
BOILING POINT: IBP >100°F (>38°C)
MELTING POINT: N/A
VAPOR PRESSURE: (Reid) 5.3 psi @ 100°F
VAPOR DENSITY (AIR=1): 3
SPECIFIC GRAVITY @ 60°F (water=1): 0.7
MOLECULAR WEIGHT: not available
SOLUBILITY (H2O): negligible
PERCENT VOLATILES: 100%
VISCOSITY: not available

From another site.

Notes on Coleman Fuel

<[email protected]> writes.......(Feb 2003)

(Frank Schmidt, Senior Project Engineer, Appliances-Fuels-Patio Grills, The Coleman Co.)

Coleman Fuel was developed in the early 50's as a replacement for "white gas" which in the US was readily available at hardware stores and gas stations. This was the original motor fuel, no tetraeythlead, or additives, also know as casing head gas, water white color. Was also used as a cleaning agent for mostly white materials, also a fuel for outboard motors and early powered lawnmowers. This source started to disappear in the 50's due to technology.

The Coleman fuel of today has not changed in years, it is a blended naphtha with no lead compounds, and a paraffinic type. The benzene content is controlled to .5% by wt. or less and we add a rust inhibitor along with a green dye for identification


Now from wikipedia

Wiki about Napthias



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637780 posted 04/22/08 05:25 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So, it's like 1 octane.



Ryan Hertz

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Dialcaliper
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637810 posted 04/22/08 06:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Coleman fuel is just refined naptha with a rust preventative. Its basically light petroleum that burns clean (little to no soot). According to Coleman, it has an octane of 50-55 and is not a substitute for gasoline, kerosene or diesel.

Coleman FAQ

Honestly, gasoline is far more volatile with a flash point of -40 F. The funny part is that if someone invented with gasoline as new "alternative" liquid fuel today, it would never become generally accepted due to how dangerous it is compared to diesel and alcohol fuels. Ironically, the only proposed fuel more dangerous is Hydrogen. Who knows what idiot thought that was a good idea.



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Edited by Dialcaliper (04/22/08 06:51 PM)

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curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637836 posted 04/22/08 07:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I knew the octane was low but is clean so I guess what I was thinking was bonding this with meth/xylene instead of water meth mix. Just wondering if theres any benefits.



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mj_rosenfeld
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637874 posted 04/22/08 08:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I thought the benefit of methanol was that it was highly volatile and thus cooled the intake charge due to its change in phase from liquid to vapor. It does not seem like the Coleman is as volatile and would not be as effective as methanol.
Mike R.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637910 posted 04/22/08 10:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
But he is saying to mix it WITH meth instead of WATER.



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mj_rosenfeld
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637915 posted 04/22/08 10:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It does not mix with water whereas methanol does so it may not even mix with methanol.
Mike R.

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curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637938 posted 04/22/08 11:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You were my chemical hope mj.....I was just wondering about the bonds with methanol.... IF you mix the two together it may leave with a really nice mix or weed killer.


I'll break out my physical chemistry book and see if I can remember how to make things bond.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637948 posted 04/22/08 11:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Alright, I have a question on stuff that might work for injection. I work with isopropyl alcohol. Is that a viable alternative to methanol/water?



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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 637993 posted 04/23/08 01:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Why not just pump in straight methanol? Works great in my car.

It's really not *that* expensive, and I don't go through a whole lot per full tank of gas. Probably get about 5gallons of meth to 3 full tanks of gas, depending on how much I romp on it.



-Mark

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Edited by turbowop (04/23/08 01:58 AM)

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Dialcaliper
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638002 posted 04/23/08 02:20 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The main reason various blends of alcohol and water are used:

Alcohol has high octane and requires a reasonable amount of energy to vaporize it, more than most other liquids (which means it reduces the intake temperature more efficiently by weight, and it also has a relatively low boiling point, so it atomizes well) .

Water is used because it has both a high specific heat and a very high heat of vaporization, twice that of methanol. Which means not only does it absorb a lot of energy to vaporize it, it also absorbs a lot of energy just to heat it up.

The only common liquid with a higher specific heat is ammonia, which has a low heat of vaporization, and you wouldn't want to run it through your engine :P

The main advantage of water besides it's properties is that it is plentiful and cheap.



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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638014 posted 04/23/08 04:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Does it really matter if water reduces intake temps more efficiently? I don't think there's ever been a case of anybody making more power with water injection than with methanol injection. Water may be free and plentiful, but meth is more fun, making it worth the money, IMO.



-Mark

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Dialcaliper
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638020 posted 04/23/08 05:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Pure water injection actually works best in an engine that's been designed for it - higher boost, or higher base compression ratio, and most importantly, high octane fuel. It was originally conceived for turbocharged WWII fighter planes that needed short bursts of extra power.

The water doesn't just reduce intake temperatures, it slows down heat buildup inside the cylinder because of its high heat capacity, which acts to reduce knock - methanol reduces intake temperatures, but the in-cylinder benefits are much lower, because the methanol burns off and produces more heat than it and its byproducts absorb. In addition to knock reduction, what you're doing with high added water levels is harnessing some of the waste heat and using it as a pure working fluid - almost like a hybrid steam/gasoline engine. It's the same philosophy as a turbocharger - making power off of waste heat.

In fact, water injection used differently can also be tuned for efficiency in a combined gas/steam engine - run a high thermostat, lean the engine way out and run high compression. Engines that run purely on water that isn't preheated (steam) are a hoax, but efficiency gains can be made from the anti-knock properties.

The effects of in-cylinder cooling and octane work in fundamentally different ways, so the best result from an engine that primarily runs on gasoline will usually be from a blend of the two, along with higher boost, depending on the setup.

From a dyno-queen perspective, a pure methanol burning engine would still benefit from water injection. But the only place that methanol is used like that are drag cars, in which weight is also critical - if you have a stripped down car with only enough fuel for a run, then obviously, a tank of water (which is quite dense compared to alcohol) and the equipment to inject it are not worth the weight. I'm certain that gains could be had from running methanol with a bit of water mixed in straight from the fuel cell could perform better than pure meth, but regulations in racing leagues typically do not allow such things.

Of course you could just run pure methanol if you rebuild the engine specifically for it, but then you've departed from gasoline entirely. The main advantage of gasoline is of course, availability and energy density.

The main reason to use methanol in the mix is because a little bit does a lot to compensate for the low octane of pump gas. Methanol is a superior fuel for producing power, but is obviously more difficult to obtain.

Pump gasoline is available, energy dense, and pretty much the cheapest option for fuel (except in corn-land where E85 is widely available). Pure water injection has benefits for gasoline, and is also dirt cheap and widely available.

Using methanol is purely a matter of cost and inconvenience. If it's worth the money, why not run it pure. In fact, if cost is no object, you should just have dual fuel systems and injectors in the manifold, and switch the engine to 100% methanol at WOT (or any open loop situation, or maybe above a certain RPM) You could probably set it up with a standalone pretty easily.

Cost no object: I'm envisioning a super-built, high compression, high revving motor with a giant racing snail under the hood. Low RPM tuned with the timing back for pump gas to cruise around on, and at the boost threshold (5000-6000 RPM) the system switches over to pure methanol and a ton of boost.

It's just a matter of how much fun your wallet can support. Water injection is a cheap, cost effective mod with the right supporting mods. Methanol is not economical compared to other mods, it is purely an expensive fun additive.

Add methanol until satisfaction is achieved or bank account = zero.



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Edited by Dialcaliper (04/23/08 06:10 AM)

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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638195 posted 04/23/08 04:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Even after that huge reply trying to justify the use of water, at the end of the day, methanol injection is still a better option in something like our cars.

A *good* injection kit runs ~$500 and methanol doesn't exactly break the bank at $35/5gallons. That five gallons lasts quite awhile. Water injection kit pieced together should run close to $200 or more and water is free, but how much boost have people been able to increase on water? Maybe a couple psi? I know Karter wasn't able to get much more. The steam clean properties are nice, but where's the fun in that if you're not making any more power.

I'm pretty sure most of us mod our cars to produce more acceleration because it's fun, and methanol produces a lot more than water in our case.



-Mark

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638198 posted 04/23/08 04:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It was originally conceived for turbocharged WWII fighter planes that needed short bursts of extra power.




From ever thing I have ever read they used Nitrous oxide for the short busts of extra power. It was used then in hot rods after the war because of how well it worked. The retuning solders wanted that same power in there cars.


P.S from what I remember the water injection was used just to cool the intake charge because of not being able to run a intercooler



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Edited by Brianawd (04/23/08 05:25 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638217 posted 04/23/08 05:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting turbowop:

I know Karter wasn't able to get much more. The steam clean properties are nice, but where's the fun in that if you're not making any more power.




I'm pretty sure I could have seen a lot higher boost if my ignition and fuel systems were up to the task. To this day I can't really go much over 23psi cause it starts to break up. My car probably isn't the best example for what you're talking about. I think initially I increased boost like 2 psi.


Also, I don't think Dialcaliper is disagreeing with you that much Mark, I think he's more saying that the use of water AND methanol injected together works well. Not just one or the other.


Edited by kartorium (04/23/08 05:06 PM)

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Dialcaliper
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 638283 posted 04/23/08 06:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
To clarify:

Water Injection was invented in the 1930's (note the emphasis on cheap) and first used by German airplanes, but caught on more widely in American planes in WWII, as oil feedstock for fuel in the US was of inferior quality. Water injection is basically an adaptation of the steam engine. Best benefits are obtained by some increase in boost, but also running leaner and advancing timing to build higher pressures. Waste heat is converted to cylinder pressure by heating the water.

Nitrous was first introduced by the Luftwaffe in WWII.

Both predate the Intercooler, which was not conceived of until multi-stage turbocharging was developed in airplanes. "Aftercooling" or the intercoolers that we use now, came a little later. Water injection fell out of use due to the convenience and weight advantage offered by intercoolers.

In WWII, airplanes did not use intercoolers, and used water injection only for short bursts because they had access to 130-150 octane gasoline made from carbon chains (8-10 carbon) in between gasoline (6-8 carbon) and diesel/kerosene (12-16 carbon), which really doesn't benefit much from aftercooling, or from methanol (120 octane). Basically, pure water is better than methanol at suppressing knock, and while methanol produces more power than pure water, it is inferior to super-high octane gasoline. Hence the pure water. Aftercooling is mainly beneficial for lower octane fuels, where timing is more limited, whereas intercooling between compressor stages is much more beneficial.



Quoting Brianawd:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It was originally conceived for turbocharged WWII fighter planes that needed short bursts of extra power.




From ever thing I have ever read they used Nitrous oxide for the short busts of extra power. It was used then in hot rods after the war because of how well it worked. The retuning solders wanted that same power in there cars.


P.S from what I remember the water injection was used just to cool the intake charge because of not being able to run a intercooler





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Edited by Dialcaliper (04/23/08 07:12 PM)

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