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tre stage 3 or 4


Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213460 posted 07/28/15 06:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ive been making a little bit of progress here and there and tweaking my funds. Im at the point now where ive settled on what turbo set up i want but im not sure if i should get a stage 3 or 4. My setup should be something along the lines of an fp manifold, fp black, fmic, 1600cc injectors evo o2 3"dp and exhaust. I Currently have a walbro but ill be swapping to a better flowing fuel pump when i swap out the 16g for the fp black. Ill be using pump gas on the streets but e85 for the 1/4. Ive been doing a lot of research and seen this turbo make impressive power on e85. Ive also seen it go beyond what tre rates their stage 3 trans at. It wont be daily driven just ocassional driving and to the track. I have the money for either one but if stage 4 is overkill i can save and invest the money into other parts of the car. Thanks.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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KiNgMaRtY
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213492 posted 07/29/15 10:07 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Definitely go with the Stage 4 if you plan on maxing out the FP black. Since you are already spending a good coin might as well go with the stage 4 for slightly more and you will have the piece of mind.



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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213924 posted 08/04/15 10:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So this came from him when i found out he has no transmissions or transfer cases in stock to do an exchange build. I told him as posted id like to be able to support 600whp and it seems like he just doesnt want to do it. Telling me to tone down the power? Why advertise your site anymore



Well you donít have to stop at 600whp but you do realize that the transmission was only rated for 245 torque right?

While I do have customers that have made over 800whp and some that claim over 1000whp I make no guarantees in regards to how much itíll handle.

Personally, with parts going obsolete, Iíd tone it down a little and hope for the best.

Iím not trying to scare you off, I build a damn good anything, but I am not one to make bullshit claims just to get the job.

Let me know if you have questions.

Jon



To which i responded thats what your stage 4 trans with evo 3 shot peened gears is for right? I havent gotten a response yet. Any other reputable trans builders left for the dsms?



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"


Edited by Kibby (08/04/15 10:36 AM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213925 posted 08/04/15 10:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Seems like lately no. They all say they are continuing to support the DSM community, but from the rumors, it seems like they don't want to bother. They'd rather support big money making builds.

Sad days we live in now. Used to do it for the fun, the community, the skill and passion. Now they are all going corporate and money hungry.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213934 posted 08/04/15 12:08 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Jacks recently pulled out of the DSM/GVR4 trans game. Shepard puled out about 2 years ago. TRE is one of the only ones left.
It is true though, it used Evo gears that were made for an x amount of power.

James Foster has the TRE Level 4 and he is making 730 HP with it.



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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213942 posted 08/04/15 01:09 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It does make them stronger but I still hold the opinion that people are asking way too much out of the transmissions and even the EVO-III parts were only rated for 245 torque.

Iím just sayingÖ.

Then he sends me this bs. Really and after seeing 730 horsepower. Im tempted to call him out and just say do you even want to do business anymore or are you pulling out of the game too.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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thomcasey
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213948 posted 08/04/15 01:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I am of the opinion that he will not gaurantee the HP you are seeking. He, Shep and Jacks have been burned because though they make a strong tranny, they cannot make the owner setup the clutch correctly and launch correctly. That was always Shep's complaint. He never broke his trannies, but he also setup his clutch and shifter properly to avoid the drag and wear on the shift forks that cause so many failures. He also never "dump-clutched" his launches.

You can get shep to build you a tranny, probably Jacks to. But, you will be told a cost up front, and you will pay up-front. They have a glut of bad trannys sitting in the warehouse that folks sent in, they went through them, just to have the sender say keep it, I can't afford the rebuild. It takes time to go through them, and that is money they never see when people cancel out.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213951 posted 08/04/15 01:53 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just have TRE do it. Legitimately John cannot "guarantee" some HP level, but the fact is he builds good stuff and has made many improvements of his own designs. He can be a bit excitable and difficult to deal with sometimes. I have had him build 2 or 3 over the years with no issues (but I am not making 400+ hp).



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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213957 posted 08/04/15 02:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I asked him if he doesnt want to do the build and he hasnt responded. I dont want to keep bother him if hes getting out of the game.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213959 posted 08/04/15 03:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Like I said, Iím not trying to scare you off but I donít recommend putting a shit ton of torque through these gearboxes but if that is what you got out of my replies then I guess weíre done here.

Sooo hes saying his stage 4 is no better power handling wise than a stock transmission. Im getting in touch with jack right now with a detailed email. If he wants to act like a dick he just lost about 5g worth of my business.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213967 posted 08/04/15 04:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm waiting for the attitude of, "oh you still play with DSM? Go get an EVO or a GTR then I'll help" from many shops.

Just wait and see, it will happen.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213975 posted 08/04/15 05:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just so you are aware, a stage 3 or 4 transmission doesn't really have much of a strength increase over stock (depending on what year you are starting with). The ONLY manuals that I would really trust long term against 700+hp is a full PPG or PAR straight cut gearset. He is right, the highest HP that any DSM/VR4/early EVO was ever asked/designed to handle was 240ish hp. If you compare them against the Evo4+ they are very narrow, and they use the 3rd gear as the drive for the center diff, putting much extra load on it. Now I'm not saying people haven't made xxx-whp and been fine behind Mitsubishi gears, but they are on borrowed time, and anyone who has been in the game will agree with that. I'm not sure on where TRE stands as far as continuing to build them, but a lot of it has to do with cost/expectation. Will a "stage 3 or 4" trans from any one of the builders shift well under high RPM/high load, absolutely. Is it going to never blow up just because it uses the best FACTORY OEM parts, of course not, but people assume because it's a "race" transmission and cost 4k it won't, but it will, catastrophically, I almost guarantee it. After 600-650whp depending on weight of the car, torque output, and amount of pulls/etc, 3rd and 4th gear become a gamble. No ways around it. Shot peening, micro polishing, cryo treating etc, will increase the window a tiny bit, but it's not a 2x increase or anything.

I'm actually glad he responded the way he did, not because you wanted to hear that, but because you needed to. If you want a dyno queen or cruiser, then it will probably hold together just fine. If you plan to track the car exclusively and make 7-8-900 HP, empty your wallet for an aftermarket gearset, or go Auto. Sorry. End rant.



91 #108/2000- link
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Edited by EMX5636 (08/04/15 09:01 PM)

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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213984 posted 08/04/15 06:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I can afford that. Hmmmm... to have that setup though would most likely eliminate street driving. Meh. Ill sleep on it. Maybe ill just dip the wallet and get a dog box.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213995 posted 08/04/15 08:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
This thread makes me sad.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1213999 posted 08/04/15 08:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Kibby:

I can afford that. Hmmmm... to have that setup though would most likely eliminate street driving. Meh. Ill sleep on it. Maybe ill just dip the wallet and get a dog box.





I've been street/daily driving my dogbox for almost 2 years now. It's not hard once you get the hang of it. Don't read what people post on the internet unless they have owned one for a significant period of time. Next you're gonna tell me that you heard you can't put street miles on an aluminum rod engine.



91 #108/2000- link
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FlyingEagle Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214000 posted 08/04/15 09:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
There were only so many cores and sob stories one guy could have ever taken from an industry of patons well known for their vices; one of which was spending money in tiny amounts.

If you have a trans that is worth rebuilding, core or no core, he's offered to build it. He has always stood behind his work ... he also tells you up front, what to expect from a built trans.

Doesn't seem anything out of the ordinary for a shop owner.

There are guys out there that can build a trans with parts, and there are those that can design and modify and do what a professional business should be able to do.

I would personally be wondering why a car needs this much power, unless it is going in a straight line.

Dogbox it, or install the straight cut gears, or cut the power output to a lower level and redesign the engine breathing setup.

There are standard Mitsu transmissions and there are professional race transmissions. You are on borrowed time with both, but with one, you will likely keep it together longer, assuming EVERYTHING else in the scenario is equal and nothing else brakes. The gears and driveline are the single greatest applications of torque as it is multiplied and slung down the system to the rims.

The first swapped AWD 3G Mirage we knew about at 4g61t.org, was bought from the owner and /rebuilt/raced by an intelligent local Californian. He has put multiple AWD boxes in it, including the better gear sets, and it kills every part mentioned here, on more than one occasion. He knows what he is doing, and what parts he was using. IF he had done it ALL over again, his funds may have put him close to a dogbox, definitely could have done straight cut gearing ... but who drives a pizza delivery car with straight cut gears ... hmmm...

Every member here that made high power for any length of time, has felt the wrath of broken gears, or something else in the whole combo.

Don't expect a builder to say anything other than what we've seen here. I bet Tim Zimmer would tell you the same, Magnus would tell you the same, Jack would tell you the same.

I say pick your battle, but either go overkill and hope it survives longer and the part out yields a better return, or seriously dial it back.

This is strictly my point of view from an engineering standpoint. I am not spending your money.



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prove_it
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214029 posted 08/05/15 09:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Is IS well known now in days that the best choice for 600+whp is to swap an AUTO trans for drag duty. Far less spendy in the long run. Far more stout too.



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thomcasey
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214033 posted 08/05/15 09:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^^ Right there.



Thom
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214046 posted 08/05/15 11:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting EMX5636:

Just so you are aware, a stage 3 or 4 transmission doesn't really have much of a strength increase over stock (depending on what year you are starting with). The ONLY manuals that I would really trust long term against 700+hp is a full PPG or PAR straight cut gearset. He is right, the highest HP that any DSM/VR4/early EVO was ever asked/designed to handle was 240ish hp....Shot peening, micro polishing, cryo treating etc, will increase the window a tiny bit, but it's not a 2x increase or anything.

I'm actually glad he responded the way he did, not because you wanted to hear that, but because you needed to. If you want a dyno queen or cruiser, then it will probably hold together just fine. If you plan to track the car exclusively and make 7-8-900 HP, empty your wallet for an aftermarket gearset, or go Auto. Sorry. End rant.




^ QFT

Sometimes, I wonder why builders even offer "Stage whatever" build options in the first place. I feel like it gives many people the illusion they somehow get magically stronger as the "stage" increases.

At the end of the day, the Mitsu boxes these guys are building are assembled using some variation of a factory gearset. Those gear sets were never intended to handle the torque loads most people are running through them. Having a car that's set up well, treating the gear sets, or adding certain tougher parts (like a 4 spider for example) may prolong the life of the trans, but you're on borrowed time as soon as you exceed the capacity of the box. This is the reason the majority of drag cars making serious power are on auto boxes.

If somebody guarantees you their box with a Mitsu gearset will hold up to 600WHP, they are bull shitting you. It may hold that power for a long time, but again...It's borrowed time.



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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214071 posted 08/05/15 03:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It does seem like his site is misleading after talking to him. Making claims of improved power it can handle after swapping to evo 3 gears and treating the gears but still saying the 245tq number. He stopped talking to me and isnt responding. Guess i made him mad. And i got the car so it will go in a straight line. I have no intention of dailying it or adding 100k miles of driving to it. It was a lot cheaper than an evo. Just feel misled from all the info he posts about his stage builds then tells me to tone down my power. Money isnt an issue for my build and im not pulling the money out of a loan to do it either. Idk what to do. Jacks got back to me but wants almost 3g for what i need and that requires me sending parts to him for the 4 spider conversion and installing the gearset myself.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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citymunky
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214081 posted 08/05/15 05:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Did you try TMZ? click



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214082 posted 08/05/15 06:00 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cool, TMZ started selling the Liberty stuff back in October.

Also, Kibby, as much I love and praise the Liberty stuff, I think you're shooting for a power goal past what I would recommend for them. If money really is no object, and you're set on banging gears, get a straight-cut gearset from Magnus or Shep/etc and install them yourself.



91 #108/2000- link
97 Kawi ZX7R Street/Track
03 Kawi KLX400R Supermoto
05 CTS-V Stealth Grey
09 Hummer H3T


Edited by EMX5636 (08/05/15 06:04 PM)

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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214084 posted 08/05/15 06:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting citymunky:

Did you try TMZ? click




Backed up til October



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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Kibby
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214201 posted 08/07/15 03:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So i thought about it for a few days. I figure ill be fine with ~450hp im sure the transmission will last longer than 600hp. If i decide the need to push it ill set money aside for a dogbox.



As a rule of thumb for the Mitsubishi owner with a desire to go faster "If your car ain't broke, you are"

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1214208 posted 08/07/15 09:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Not to be pedantic, but when we are all talking about the capacity that transmissions were designed to handle, we should all be talking about torque figures correct?

Kibby, I don't envy having to spend the kind of money you are looking at spending. Gosh knows how long it took me to get around to getting a somewhat built transmission, or better than a standard rebuild.

The only solace we get is knowing that in theory the parts we will be using, as "designed" to handle the punishment we want to throw at them; but driving will also help determine the lifespan of said parts too.



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