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Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise


IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130168 posted 06/27/13 11:20 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
sorry for the long story


engine background: good 4g63 engine, no balance shafts, arp studs, oem fiber gasket, tear drop oil port mod done to head, haven't had lifter tick with 1g lifters since start up (almost a year on it) no leaks, no oil burning, been a solid runner, short block was used and came from myles, i checked it over and as suspected since myles is such a stand up guy, everything was legit, head was used and was taken to a machine shop, cleaned, inspected, new seals, no issues found.

So a month ago I went out for a cruise with the 4g63 swapped wagon, nothing hardcore just driving around, take off from a stop light, shift into 2nd gear, hear this weird sound that's the speed of lifter tick but louder, think 'wtf just broke' and i pull into a parking lot, open the hood and listen, sounds weird, not like lifter tick, but i think 'maybe it is, i have been running revised lifters for so long, maybe i dont remember what it sounds like!' I give it a little rev and think 'man that sounds weird.'

So i shut it off and let it cool a little while, kick back and relax, check the oil level, start it back up after 15 minutes, sound seems to be gone. i decide to drive home and investigate further. Get home, pop the hood, check timing belt tension, check oil again and look for any shimmer, none found. start it back up and let it idle, sit there in a lawn chair for 10 minutes watching it idle and listening to it, bring revs up to 3k, hold them, let off, bring back up, feather it around, finally get it to do the sound again, keep fucking with the throttle; up, down, hold, up, down, a, b, a, b, select, start. Sound goes away (didnt actually do the a,b,a,b part, duh)

Decide it's valve train noise, go inside, buy revised lifters, figure since im in there i might as well replace the old stock units.

lifters arrive lighting fast since Eric Jones is the shit, pull apart my valve train and inspect, see no issues, no collapsed lifters, check anything i can check, install all the new stuff, start it up and wait for the new lifters to pump up. once pumped they sound great, sound like the old lifters did before the weird noise, i fuck with the revs again, get the sound to happen again, get pissed, shut it off, go inside, kill myself. well, except that last part.

come out the next day, start it up, sounds even better, mess with the rpms, sound doesnt happen, i start to question my brain and think that lifter noise has been the issue the whole time. drive the car to work, no issues. at work start searching for valve train noises not related to lifters, find stuff on this board about cracked rocker rollers, think 'oh my'. go home and remove VC again, slowly crank over engine by hand and inspect all the rocker rollers, find no red flags, put back together, go out for a drive, no noise...

drive it 3 hours to a car show in detroit, all is well, no noises. drive it 2.5 hours home, noise comes back half hour from home, i pull off, grab a tea, let it cool off, browse the web for a bit, thank some rednecks for stopping to see if im ok, have a short conversation with an old guy who's wife used to own a 75 wagon, start the car back up, sound is gone. drive softly the other 30 minutes home, park the car and dont drive it for 3 days.

Come back out, drive it for a week, swap in a KM132 transmission, drive it a bunch, every day in fact, until monday of this week, noise comes back.

searched the web throughout the week and finally found a video that sounds similar to it.

click

dont mind the commentary, just listen to the engine noise, my car doesnt have balance shafts (incase you're a youtube comment reader)


Thanks for reading and here's a recent picture of the booger bay:



Any input?



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

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ade
Carbon Fiber Phallus Group Buy Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130174 posted 06/27/13 11:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
someone posted this bellow the vid. Spun balance shaft bearing bud, had the same problem





posting and you...

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IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130176 posted 06/27/13 11:52 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^ guess you missed my comment above:

Quote:

dont mind the commentary, just listen to the engine noise, my car doesnt have balance shafts (incase you're a youtube comment reader)





-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

Posts: 5593 | From: Arizona | Member Since: 05/28/03 | IP: (24.11.254.73) | Report this post to a Moderator

MellowVR4
5" too short
372/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130180 posted 06/27/13 12:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have never heard a noise like that on these motors other then something to do with the timing belt area. Maybe the gernade is fucking up . Defently does not sound like a lifter tick, could be rockers related, thinking about this really hard as im here at work. Im kind of curiouse on what could be causing that noise. I doubt a broken spring would cause that? But you checked all that and found nothing correct? Im lost



89 RAIDER V6 5speed
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IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130193 posted 06/27/13 02:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm going to remove the rockers and inspect them very closely next week, this thread is really making me suspect them:

click



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

Posts: 5593 | From: Arizona | Member Since: 05/28/03 | IP: (24.11.254.179) | Report this post to a Moderator

EHmotorsports
Capt Fabbin Stabbin
1865/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130198 posted 06/27/13 03:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That and measure the base circle of every cam lobe. Should be close to 1.180 I believe. I will check a good pair of cams and report back with a corrected/exact number tonight.



click


Edited by EHmotorsports (06/27/13 10:46 PM)

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IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130204 posted 06/27/13 03:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks!



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

Posts: 5593 | From: Arizona | Member Since: 05/28/03 | IP: (24.11.254.179) | Report this post to a Moderator

ade
Carbon Fiber Phallus Group Buy Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130214 posted 06/27/13 05:00 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Alpha Male:

^ guess you missed my comment above:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
dont mind the commentary, just listen to the engine noise, my car doesnt have balance shafts (incase you're a youtube comment reader)








lol yah i def missed that, damnit yousquare.





posting and you...

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Wizardawd
Senior Member
598/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130298 posted 06/28/13 01:27 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That video sounds like the timing belt is flapping. Try shining a light down the left side of the timing belt and look around the area of the tensioner and rev to around 2-4k. You should see some serious timing belt flap. If you do, chances are the hydraulic adjuster has failed. Check by trying to depress with your thumb, if you can it's bad.

Wiz



598/1000 Nile Black
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transparentdsm
I have to say something dumb Member
138/2000


152/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130307 posted 06/28/13 03:50 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting EHmotorsports:

That and measure the base circle of every cam lobe. Should be close to 1.180 I believe. I will check a good pair of cams and report back with a corrected/exact number tonight.




this is what i was thinking, maybe out of round.



138/2000
152/1000

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IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130318 posted 06/28/13 08:52 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Wizardawd:

That video sounds like the timing belt is flapping. Try shining a light down the left side of the timing belt and look around the area of the tensioner and rev to around 2-4k. You should see some serious timing belt flap. If you do, chances are the hydraulic adjuster has failed. Check by trying to depress with your thumb, if you can it's bad.

Wiz




tension is all good, that was one of the first things i suspected as I had a 3kgt vr4 come into my shop once sounding like rod knock; it was the parts dinosaur tensioner i told him I did not want to install, luckily I had kept his OEM one on the shelf 'just in case' since it was perfectly fine. Well, that saved his ass!



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

Posts: 5593 | From: Arizona | Member Since: 05/28/03 | IP: (24.11.254.179) | Report this post to a Moderator

Wizardawd
Senior Member
598/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130332 posted 06/28/13 10:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Keep in mind there are 2 tensioners. One you set for initial tension, the other is hydraulic and attempts to maintain belt during during loading and unloading of the engine. When this hydraulic adjuster fails, it will cause excessive slack during the rev range even though the tension is set correctly when the engine is off.

Could also be the oil pump stub shaft since you are running a BS elim.

And in the video, the noise is far too quick to be a lifter or rocker.

Wiz



598/1000 Nile Black
12/2000 Nile Black
1995 Montero SR
1997 Talon Tsi AWD Auto


Edited by Wizardawd (06/28/13 10:04 AM)

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andrew4g63
GVR4 have DSM stickers all over them, they are DSMs
1706/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130477 posted 06/29/13 08:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Maybe get a stethoscope or a long screwdriver to listen and pinpoint where the noise is coming from.
I had a turbo that made a crazy noise like that at idle but I could def. see the t-belt tensioner causing same type noise.



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theevozero
Member +
480/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1130503 posted 06/29/13 02:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Wizardawd:

Keep in mind there are 2 tensioners. One you set for initial tension, the other is hydraulic and attempts to maintain belt during during loading and unloading of the engine. When this hydraulic adjuster fails, it will cause excessive slack during the rev range even though the tension is set correctly when the engine is off.

Could also be the oil pump stub shaft since you are running a BS elim.

And in the video, the noise is far too quick to be a lifter or rocker.

Wiz




I agree, I seriously doubt its top end. The frequency of that sound is too fast to be cam,rocker,lifter related. Sounds like oil pump gears.



L1, Diesel ASE Master
1991 Gvr4 480/2000 290k miles.(garage queen, race car)
1998 Integra LS, (nice suspension) daily duty.
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bcjjones
Junior Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1131455 posted 07/06/13 10:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I know its been said above, but to me it sounds like a bad hydraulic tensioner. I had one sound like that right before it sounded like rod knock. Couldn't figure out the sound just like you can't, until I thought my motor was knocking.

I hoped it was just the tensioner, so I removed it and found it to be completely bad.

If you haven't, I'd suggest actually taking the time to get it off and double check. I got lucky, and mine went completely out at idle in my driveway.

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1131990 posted 07/11/13 12:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Water pump going out and making noise? Tbelt bearing?
Could it be coming from the clutch/flywheel/bellhousing area? Doesn't really seem like it, but sounds sometimes travel and are perceived in odd places.



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GreenGSX
One Member


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1132499 posted 07/15/13 11:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The sound in the video sounds like the timing belt cover is rubbing the backside of the crank or water pump pulley.



click

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
555/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1133133 posted 07/19/13 01:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You figure out what's causing all that racket yet?



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97 CBR900RR
2012 Hyundai Veloster

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IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1133216 posted 07/19/13 09:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
its stopped doing it!

I was starting to suspect it was the downpipe being really close to the block at the bottom... I've still got my eye on it though and I'll be taking the timing cover off soon. Problem with a RWD set up is that the thermostat housing comes out of the front of the head, so pulling the timing cover means draining fluids, kind of annoying, i could trim the timing cover more i guess, but I like the closed off look.



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

Posts: 5593 | From: Arizona | Member Since: 05/28/03 | IP: (24.11.254.73) | Report this post to a Moderator

IncorpoRatedX
I'm an idiot...
501/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1133803 posted 07/24/13 06:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Well gents, I stand before you a humble man. Upon removal of the timing cover I found the hydraulic tensioner to be indeed failed. Not completely collapsed but very little pressure was being offered up by it. A local had a perfect one from a low mileage engine and the wagon is back up and running rattle free!! Thanks for the help all.



-Joshua Adventure Driven Design
1991 Galant VR-4
1999 Montero "Goldi-Locker"

Posts: 5593 | From: Arizona | Member Since: 05/28/03 | IP: (24.11.254.73) | Report this post to a Moderator


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