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Engine flakes ****updated question******


prove_it
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110312 posted 02/23/13 03:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
My oil pan started leaking and i took the pan off and found about 20-25 flakes of a non ferrous metal. Looks like aluminum. Would not stick to a magnet, and was silver in color. I'm thinking a bearing could be going out. I still have good oil pressure, and I checked the crank for horizontal play (crankwalk), and I came up with a measurement of .005". This seems good, is it? I didn't have my ARP sockets with me to take off any caps, so I couldn't visibly check. Everything is tight, cylinder walls are good. No engine noise, no knocking, no run-ability issues. Visually everything looks perfect. How worried should I be, and is it possible to just replace the bearings without an overhaul. Or do I need to plan on a rebuild, or a new shortblock swap?



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Edited by prove_it (04/08/13 12:54 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110315 posted 02/23/13 03:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sounds like bearing material to me.... Id pull the caps when you get a chance, rod and main. Look for scoring and excessive wear. All surfaces bearing and journal should be smoothe, journals should be shiney and the bearings should be silver. Some color differences are normal, as in a darker grey or black ish, but copper is typically a bad sign.

Bearings on the rods are easy to replace with the engine in the car, and really only envolve dropping the pan. If the journals are in good shape and you feel you need new bearings, its easy to swap them out for fresh. Just be sure to plastiguage or something to doublecheck your oil clearances and make certain youre within spec.

Mains are prettymuch the same, but you have to remove the crank completely to get them out easiest, as well as the front cover, trans, clutch, flywheel and so on. Bit more envolved.... BUT, typically if your rods are fine then your mains are as well, being as the mains get oiled first, then the rods.

Hope that helps!

-Jake



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110316 posted 02/23/13 03:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Right, if I find nothing there? And standard size bearings should fit right? When it was built nothing had to get cut, soo standard size?



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Edited by prove_it (02/25/13 09:15 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110331 posted 02/23/13 05:41 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do you still have balance shafts?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110550 posted 02/25/13 08:59 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nope eliminated those.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110567 posted 02/25/13 10:27 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting prove_it:

Right, if I find nothing there? And standard size bearings should fit right, when it was built, the line bore was good, and nothing had to get cut, soo standard?




Use the same size you pull out. Just be sure to measure tolerances and doublecheck your clearances.

-Jake



1993 Talon TSI, FPgreen DD
1957 VW Beetle Sedan Deluxe
1997 Civic EX, B18c/5lug swapped
2002 Yamaha Fz-1
Looking for another GVR4, or 5/2000...PM!

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110579 posted 02/25/13 11:19 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Here is a question:

When I built the engine, I installed ARP main studs thinking I would need them. Well at the time I didn't know that a line bore needed to be checked. Plastigage readings were good and the crank turned like butter. I got it running and everything was fine, then I learned about needing to line bore the block with main stud installs. So now I have possible bearing material in the pan. I've put over 25k on this engine with no oil pressure issues or engine noise. I would suspect I got lucky and didn't mess up the line bore that bad. So now I'm wondering if I should throw some new factory bolts in and replace the arp main studs when I check everything out again, or am I better off sticking with the studs? I now know that main studs are serious overkill. I'm planning on doing a complete bearing job with the engine still in the car, I'm going to try and sneak the main bearings out with the crank still in so I don't want to worry about machine shop work. I'm going to try to get buy as cheap as I can. At the time I used the Clevite 77 bearings as 5 years ago they seemed good. I'm planning on switching to ACL race bearings.

I have three scenarios:

If I pull this apart and find no bearing damage, I'll put in new bearings anyway. Should I stick with the arp's or switch to stock bolts?

If I pull this apart and find bearing damage, but the crank is ok, can I get by with new bearings? Again, studs or stock bolts?

Or third, full damage, new crank and all work related.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110581 posted 02/25/13 11:29 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Senerio 4

Find bearings toast and pull engine out. Drop it off at the machine shop to have everything checked out and line bored. Then re assemble yourself to save some cash. Some things you can't cheap out on if you want it to work properly. 80% of the time it's why we see so many part out threads.



click

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110588 posted 02/25/13 12:02 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
EH is correct. If anything is toast or damaged you should plan on a rebuild. You may be able to get away with slapping a new set of bearings in as a temp fix, but dont expect it to be anything other than a "until it happens again" scenario, which it WILL be. Theres going to be a reason the bearings came apart or started to wear excessively, and its either going to be a clearance issue or an oiling issue.

-Jake



1993 Talon TSI, FPgreen DD
1957 VW Beetle Sedan Deluxe
1997 Civic EX, B18c/5lug swapped
2002 Yamaha Fz-1
Looking for another GVR4, or 5/2000...PM!

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110589 posted 02/25/13 12:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Look guys, I know the "correct" thing to do. Really I do. I appreciate the helpful comments, but saying to me over and over "rebuild it" won't help me right now. I know I will have to rebuild the block, no question to that. I can't handle that task right now. I would if I could. I need this car to run a little longer. Soon I can put it up on Jackstands and go to town on everything, however that is not now. I know I'm looking at a bandaid fix, I know I won't be able to push 600whp through it. I know I gotta "pay to play".

What I'm wondering if the mains were out of round with arp's would I buy more time with using stock bolts instead?



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110593 posted 02/25/13 12:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You won't know if it will work untill you take it to a machine shop to make sure things are in spec.



click

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110606 posted 02/25/13 01:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You found the issue and are planning on correcting it. Yes, you are assuming everything is okay by just replacing the bearings and running. I have a feeling that the mains are the culprite and your issue will be fixed when you switch back to stock bolts. I would replace the bearings with the same size that was in there, make sure the crank is not damaged and reassemble. Also, check you oil pump for debris and damage.

Also, your crank does NOT need to be removed for main bearing replacment. You can push the old ones out with one of the other bearings and roll new ones in.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110677 posted 02/25/13 09:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think I'm going to plan on throwing a crank in this guy anyway. If I go back to stock main bolts, will the possible line bore go back to stock, or is it messed up. Remember the line bore has never been done. I do plan on measuring out to bores to check for out of round and using my straight to check for out of alignment. I "feel" I will be ok as there is no noise or oil pressure issues though.

Does anyone know if these are good cranks?
Dsm Graveyard Crank
and after some searching I found what looks to be the same crank at oreilly's
O'rielly's Crank shaft

These are both claimed to be CrankShaft Rebuilders Inc. Crankshafts. If the one at O'reilly's is legitimate, I could get it way less with my work discount. It seems too cheap though. Has anyone run these? I will never exceed 450Whp for the long haul.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110680 posted 02/25/13 09:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've run the reman'd ones from Advance Auto Parts in a few high 11 sec cars with no issues. Probably the same reman company. There was a discussion a while back on tuners about them.

Wiz



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110732 posted 02/26/13 10:20 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The Dsm Graveyard is horrible. Order from there if you like waiting 6 months for paydirt, getting ignored and zero customer service.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110824 posted 02/26/13 08:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting prove_it:

These are both claimed to be CrankShaft Rebuilders Inc. Crankshafts. If the one at O'reilly's is legitimate, I could get it way less with my work discount. It seems too cheap though. Has anyone run these? I will never exceed 450Whp for the long haul.




$167 with bearings? That does seem way to cheap!



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110844 posted 02/26/13 11:00 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It IS a reman. and you have to supply a 'rebuildable' core. So sounds decent to me.

Wiz



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110867 posted 02/27/13 08:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm wondering if it's welded up and reground though. I've nothing good about welded cranks. The price is just so low. seems to be cheaper than machine work would be.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110900 posted 02/27/13 11:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You haven't taken the crank to the right place then. Marine crankshafts does a finominal job on cranks.
To the OP I have a reman crank that's 20/20 and have had no issues for the past 4 years.



click


Edited by EHmotorsports (02/27/13 11:14 AM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110902 posted 02/27/13 11:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Where did you source that crank? Trouble is around here there aren't any "really" machinists that have experience with mitsu motors.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110904 posted 02/27/13 11:19 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Orileys out here had the crank for me. But any machinist that's any good at there job can work with any crank no matter the make.



click

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110914 posted 02/27/13 12:12 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yea, but our guys out here also say you don't need a torque plate to bore the engine....



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1110918 posted 02/27/13 12:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah fire that guy hahaha



click

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1111080 posted 02/28/13 04:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting prove_it:

Yea, but our guys out here also say you don't need a torque plate to bore the engine....




You don't need a torque plate, if you don't need the bores straight.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1111081 posted 02/28/13 04:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
According to this machinist:
"They will be just as straight head on or off. The head will torque down straight and the force is equal over the whole engine. If the head is straight then the walls will be straight."

I said, "bye"



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
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