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Cross hatching Cam Journals and a couple other head questions

JDM_DSM

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
66
Location
Calgary, AB
So I just got my head back from the machine shop. Long story short, I have reason to suspect the quality of the work done on this head. This is the first head I've ever had to do, so I don't really know what I'm looking for as far as quality. A friend of mine was looking at it and said that he'd never seen cam journals come cross-hatched before. Just wondering if anyone else has seen this before. Should I be concerned or just run it as is? Is it possible to check for the appropriate clearance with the cams? My friend wondered if the shop did it to cover up damage to the journals (this is a re-build I bought, not my original head).
Here's a pic:

P1020773.JPG
 
Last edited:

Was this the head from your car? Or was it a junkyard head? Was the head severely overheated? Did it warp badly?
 

JDM_DSM

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
66
Location
Calgary, AB
Also, the coolant passages for the number 3 cylinder seem to be blocked off somewhat, like it wasn't cast right. I'm thinking I should try to grind them out a bit so they look like the other ones. Or is this a somewhat normal thing?




 

JDM_DSM

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Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
66
Location
Calgary, AB
No, the head wasn't on my car. I'm assuming the machine shop got it as a core from someone.
 

Well the machine shop align-honed those journals. It is the same process that blocks go through after being baked, or after a main bearing is spun. What happens is kind of hard to explain without pictures, but I'll try. Usually the shop will shave a few thousandths of an inch off of the cam caps (or main caps, if in a block). This creates a bore that is too small for the cam (crank) once those caps are bolted back down. They have a long honing rod that is long enough to go through all of the journals at the same time (or mains, if it is a block) and they hone all of them together to enable the cam (or crank, if in a block) to spin freelyonce they are done. If this is done correctly, the end result will be a journal diameter that is proper spec again and suitable for use. The problem is that we don't know why this was done. Lots of shops (practically all) will align hone a block as an accepted and proper repair method. The jury is out as to whether it is ok to fix heads this way. There are several geometry issues that come into play on a head that don't affect blocks, and these issues are potentially doubled in a DOHC head. The biggest potential issue is that the cams won't end up parallel to each other, or parallel to the crank, which will cause timing belt walking issues in extreme cases.

This may not be all that bad however. It is possible that one cam cap was slighty nicked up or was lost or whatever, and had to be replaced. This can be done if the replacement is a close enough match (because cam caps are specific to each head) that a little kiss with a hone might even everything up.

But by looking at the pics of the head, I would actually suspect that the shop you bought it from brought it from a nationwide remanufacturer, and just "forgot" to tell you when you bought it. More pics of the head please.
 

beaner

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Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
1,562
Location
b'ham, mi
Id carefully reshape those passages with a hand tool. One gouge on the surface and you're hating life. Here is my head when I got it back from the machine shop for a reference. As for the journals, I have no idea. My head was out of a junkyard and they left them alone. Someone smarter than I determined it wasn't needed. If it came back with a cross hatch I'd think the same thing and assemble it. How well do you trust your machinist?

Off topic: do some heads come without those passages?
 

curtis

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May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Old school sears tools FTW /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

mistaVR4

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Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
4,768
Location
Boulder, CO
I'd be scared to run that head with coolant passages that look like that. There is a a good chance the sides of those passages will break loose once heat cycled a couple times and then you have some nice aluminum particles floating around. As far as the cross hatching, I've never had a head with cam journals that look like that, but can't really seeing it as a problem since when you get a block done the cylinder walls are cross hatched, although it's iron vs aluminum? I really don't know for sure? Also measure all the journals for consistency, and to make sure their within factory spec..
 

FlyingEagle

Staff member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,635
Location
THE Ottawa
While I am not aware of the total depth of change, when the cam journals are ground, that puts the cams lower in the head.
This effectively means that cams get closer to the crank, meaning you now have a slight change in geometry that the timing belt
travels within. I am sure there is someone here who can profess to having cam journals worked on, but it has been my experience
with DOHC, to have "heard" that it should not be done. I do not know how the DSM motor responds to this geometry change, just
putting this out there for thought.
 

jnava

Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
2,073
Location
Arlington, Tx
just use a deburring tool on those edges.
 

Quoting mistaVR4:
I'd be scared to run that head with coolant passages that look like that. There is a a good chance the sides of those passages will break loose once heat cycled a couple times and then you have some nice aluminum particles floating around. As far as the cross hatching, I've never had a head with cam journals that look like that, but can't really seeing it as a problem since when you get a block done the cylinder walls are cross hatched, although it's iron vs aluminum? I really don't know for sure? Also measure all the journals for consistency, and to make sure their within factory spec..



My cylinder head guy (who knows his sh*t) says the biggest problem with 4G63 stuff is that head castings are incredibly inconsistent. He does CNC porting, and it isn't uncommon for one head to accept a huge port job while the next three fail (cuts too deep, punches through to a coolant passage) on lesser port jobs. Although with the size of the 1G ports, I don't know why anyone would port them anyway.
 

JDM_DSM

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
66
Location
Calgary, AB
Thanks for all the input so far guys. I'm not entirely sure what to do with it at this point. I'm leaning towards carefully cleaning up those coolant passages and running it, and just crossing my fingers that the cams aren't way out of wack. Is it possible to measure cam clearance like you would with a crank bearing?

As requested, here's a few more pictures of the head. Justin, what makes you think that this was bought from a remanufacturer? And do you mean a place that machines old cores, or actually casts new heads?




 

Well, as it appears to me, there is a few "tattle-tales" going on here.

First, it should be known that I used to work for a machine shop here in the Denver, CO area. This shop wasn't necessarily a performance shop per say, as the specialty of this shop was more or less stock rebuilding and installation of fairly common engines in fairly common vehicles. We weren't particularly into rotaries for instance, or old MG's or Alfa Romeo's or similar. We did build just about any American made or Japanese made engine though, and built a few stroker 4G's while I was there.

That being said, most shops clean aluminum heads by sand blasting. Your head looks too shiny to have been sand blasted. Also, there is evidence of gasket material still left around the exhaust ports and the valvecover seal area and the spark plug tube seal areas. If the head was blasted, this wouldn't be evident. Aside from that, most shops don't have the equipment to align hone cam journals. The hones are simply too small, and used so infrequently, to realistically be profitable for most shops. This is different though if you are a nationwide company, such as Jasper Engines, because, for one, you ship everything everywhere and keep stock of everything (so you only have to have one machine to serve the whole country, and can do 40 identical heads in a row, which saves time and money), and for two, the warranty process only covers so much of the actual cost of replacement (so if they sell a fucked up head, the customer usually still has to cover fluids and gaskets and head bolts and the like), so it actually costs the reman company less to chance a questionable core than it does to scrap the same core. Most of the time, most folks will throw the car on craigslist or into the scrapyard than try and fix it twice. These companies (the big, nationwide remanufucturers) usually only have to account for approximately 1/4 or less of their f***-ups. It is kind of a win- win for them actually, because the vast majority of the consumers can't prove anything was ever wrong to begin with. Also, why are the studs missing on the cam sensor boss and the coolant outlet boss? There isn't really any reason to remove those. These things all point to a head that came from a company that doesn't really care what the end consumer has to endure to actually use the said product.

These companies definitely ARE NOT casting their own heads. That would be too expensive. Look up a set of AFR heads for a 1996 LT1 350 chevy. Then call any machine shop and tell them that you want a set of the same (but original, factory) rebuilt, and the cost difference will be WELL over 1000 bucks. Gauranfawkinteed. That is because AFR (and the like) actually do cast their own versions of said heads. To my knowledge, no one needs to make their own version of the DOHC 4G head, because, despite their inconsistencies, Mitsubishi's design can't really be improved upon.

So I guess, the real question is what do you do? My suggestion is that you let another shop look at that head. THOROUGHLY. And then go from there.
 

Quoting JDM_DSM:
So I just got my head back from the machine shop. Long story short, I have reason to suspect the quality of the work done on this head. This is the first head I've ever had to do, so I don't really know what I'm looking for as far as quality. A friend of mine was looking at it and said that he'd never seen cam journals come cross-hatched before. Just wondering if anyone else has seen this before. Should I be concerned or just run it as is? Is it possible to check for the appropriate clearance with the cams? My friend wondered if the shop did it to cover up damage to the journals (this is a re-build I bought, not my original head).
Here's a pic:

P1020773.JPG




I was thinking upon this and it occured to me that it might not be clear why the cylinder head was align honed in the first place.

The only reason other than cap replacement that this would be done is because a set of cams would not turn in the head. The cams can lock up because the head was severely warped, to the point that the head is actually trying to bend the cam.

The head may have been the victim of a loss of oil pressure, which would have scored the journals, but this usually tears the journals up beyond repair, so this is a highly unlikely reason to align hone.
 
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