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Upgraded the turbo from a Chinese 16g to a MHI 14b...WOW

324vr4

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Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
Had a Chinese eBay EVO3-16g that blew it's center section and so we went from that to a 14b with the EVO3 O2 housing and wow...no more smoke and it now spools full blast at 2300 RPM...didn't expect the 1200RPM drop in spool time switching over...we were creeping to about 26psi at WOT in 5th gear with only a "slight" knock showing...(Keydiver Chip)....so I'm pretty happy to say the least...might be the best combo for auto-cross this weekend with that low spool time! The knock will disappear once the ARs are dialed in better....just thought I'd share...
 

mean_green

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Nov 12, 2007
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313
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Park City, MT 59063
Sounds awesome mayne, we still need to meet up sometime. Maybe when my galant isnt on her normal perch on jackstands. lol
 

Lonewolf64

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May 17, 2006
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1,197
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Birmingham, Alabama
Just fyi the 14b is completely useless to take to 26psi. You are probably making less power than you would make at around ~18psi, which is also WAY out of the efficiency range but still doable.
 

Terry Posten

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Dec 16, 2003
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Davenport, Iowa USA
Quoting Lonewolf64:
Just fyi the 14b is completely useless to take to 26psi. You are probably making less power than you would make at around ~18psi, which is also WAY out of the efficiency range but still doable.




I think that this statement is incorrect.

It is true that the maps show that things fall off at a certain point but under certain situations and setups, PSI past the maps curves can be better.

If I have read correctly, there are some using a 16G and E85 without a WG and cranking out 400+hp. By reading the maps, and the basic setups, that is theoretically impossible with a 16G. Same applies for the 14b.

I have had a much harder pull at 25psi on a 14b than at 18psi. But that was in the lower gears.

If your primary driving is city, below 55mph, where you almost never rev 3rd all the way to 7K, then the 14b can provide 25psi until you overheat the snail/piping/IC core.

If you can keep the intake charge temps low enough, a 14b will perform at levels of 25psi. However, at that pressure, the life expectancy is shortened but I doubt that is much concern.

And a note on the "China vs. MHI", there is no comparison. NONE. You could not pay me to put a Chinese snail on may car.
 

Wizardawd

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Aug 7, 2007
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1,323
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Franklin, NC
I'm not sure that is necc. true. I usually run 17-18psi on the street and 20-21psi at the track. And i'm not sure what Bucci ran, I know Joe was running mid 20s on his 14b and ran consistant times that put almost all cars to shame.

I would think the build and how good the supporting mods are will determine more of the best setting than the ancient thinking of 14bs are only good for 18psi. That has been proven oh so wrong millions of times.

Wiz
 

H05TYL

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Jun 9, 2007
Messages
752
Location
Wgtn, NZ
It's not hard to find compressor maps for the mhi td05's, a 14b's past it's peak efficiency at 20psi, but perhaps not excessively so, a 16G is at roughly the same efficiency at 23psi.

Running any more boost than this is probably not beneficial, but you'd really need a dyno (or a drag strip) to know for certain.
 

Hertz

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Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
I found that 18psi was the sweet spot with a JDM IC... beyond that, it would easily heat soak into 3rd gear.
 

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
We have an insanely large IC (30x17x3)that cooled great! the cold side of the IC was actually cold to the touch...that's why we were able to get away with that boost. Granted it died after 5k...power-wise
 

This is of huge interest to me because I am currently doing a build now
(ets FMIC kit, 16g, 550cc, supra tt FP, keydiver, 2G mas, fidanza flywheel)
So how high to set the boost is of great interest at this moment
 

Quoting ihatefall:
This is of huge interest to me because I am currently doing a build now
(ets FMIC kit, 16g, 550cc, supra tt FP, keydiver, 2G mas, fidanza flywheel)
So how high to set the boost is of great interest at this moment



Like above, 550's are not enough IMO also. .I would look at getting some 660's or more and tune with DSM link.
 

sleepyvr4

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Joined
Dec 25, 2003
Messages
2,359
Location
Key West
14b dyno numbers and graphs - made with ~100 octane and basic mods. Stock motor.

This car absolutely made more power when I increased boost (butt dyno and graphs below)

This turbo had 180,000 miles on it (thanks Keydiver) - and ran consistent low/mid 12's in a daily driver.

All you doubters and believers adjust your receivers - I wish more people would stick with the 14b so we could have some friendly competition. It seems as if everyone is afraid of these older turbos cutting loose and failing. Who cares. They are $50 to replace. 16g's range from $200-450 I think. Why the hell not run a 14b into the earth?!?



dynodetails.jpg


dynototals.jpg
 
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HHIVR4

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Oct 6, 2003
Messages
5,446
Location
Hilton Head Island SC
The 14b is by no means a bad autox turbo but there is a significant difference between the Wang Ding POS (no offense) you had and a real MHI E3.Do the ported wg hole and flapper upgrade and you have a great autox/street turbo that will last years.
 

sleepyvr4

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Dec 25, 2003
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Key West
argue one point or the other.

Pretty much a fact that most of the people here never really get to the point where anything larger than a 14b is necessary...

14b.jpg
 

Lonewolf64

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May 17, 2006
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1,197
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
The 14b is a great turbo. My original plan was to max out my 14b turbo, but when the stock one gave out at 165,000 miles on the clock, and I my friend was selling his Evo III 16g with 1k miles on it and his HKS 264 cams I decided to take him on an amazing deal.

Now the plan changed to maxing out the 16g. I've got to say, I do not regret making the change to the E3 16g because it is a world apart from what my 14b could do.
 

Dialcaliper

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Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
1,284
Location
Mountain View, CA
With a large enough intercooler, it doesn't matter quite as much when the turbo is way out of its efficiency range. As long as the intake charge is cool enough to prevent detonation, you can still make more power (although when the knock limit drops below MBT (mean best timing/torque), you can sometimes do better by running more timing and less boost. Note that this is octane dependent - with race gas you can go much farther before you hit knock. The main problem without one is heat (less dense air, and knock). An intercooler is kind of like "cheating" by removing the "waste" heat generated by the turbo.

You can definitely say though, that a more efficient turbo at that boost pressure will produce *more* power because less power is wasted generating heat.

One way to think of it is that exhaust manifold backpressure is decreased and more air can flow through the engine (even though you're only changing the compressor, there is less flow resistance if the turbine is not as hard to turn). In a perfectly optimized turbo setup, the exhaust pressure can be lower than the intake boost pressure, and you can run stratospheric boost pressures (ie Formula 1 in the 80's). But at that boost level, with that turbo way out of the efficiency range, I wouldn't be surprised if the exhaust manifold pressure was 2-3 times the boost pressure, as the engine is trying to push exhaust in faster than it can escape through the turbine/wastegate.

The other effect of backpressure is that your manifold "boost" is less effective. When intake valve opens into the overlap phase (where the exhaust valve is still open), the pressure it's trying to push air into is that high manifold pressure. It's quite likely that some or all of the valve overlap at some higher RPMs, you're getting reversion back into the intake, until the piston starts going down, where it gets sucked back in. Even though you still have "boost", not as much air is actually making it into the cylinder before the intake closes. What you've done is replaced perfectly good air in the cylinder with inert, uncooled exhaust gas, just like an (uncooled) EGR valve would. Some auto manufacturers actually experiment with this kind of trick on purpose to meet emissions requirements, especially when the intake is in vacuum.

Also, even if the compressor is down below 55-60% efficiency, it's still more efficient than a roots blower. You can still produce more power, but just not very "efficiently"

The only real concern is that to produce that kind of boost and airflow (600 cfm), the turbo is spinning *way* beyond the shaft speed it was designed for. Make sure you're feeding full oil pressure to it (instead of the ~15psi from the head), but the turbo's life will still be shortened (yay shaft play)

The size of turbo that you "need" is very subjective. Many people run a setup that is not optimized, whether the turbo is "too small" or "too large". Since most tuners really don't care about fuel consumption at full throttle (unlike a racecars which have to go into the pit lane during a race to refuel), and a large number of them don't put in that much effort to really dial in things like lag, powerband, throttle response, and things that reduce laptimes, as long as they are tolerable, they can still end up reasonably "satisfied" (at least for a short time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif)
 
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Another good way to stretch the ability of the 14b is by slapping on the 16g 7cm housing allowing the turbine wheel to be a little more efficient.
 

91GSR

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Sep 10, 2008
Messages
728
Location
Newport News, VA
actually having a larger housing can be less beneficial than you think. with more space in there but the same size wheel there is more space for the exhuast gases to just pass by instead of actually pushing the wheel. im not saying it wont benefit at all becuase with a larger volume housing stands to reason more air...and more air = mo powah lol. but like i said...more space without a wheel to fill it just gives space for the air to pass thru instead of pushing the wheel
 
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