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ETS or Spearco 2-216


VR_IV_MR
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 985998 posted 04/17/11 07:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
ETS: 24" x 10" x 3"
Spearco 2-216: 28" x 10.5" x 3.5"

I have the USDM front bumper.
I am willing to remove foglights.
I'm running the big e3 16g turbo.
I want to keep my air conditioning, power steering, and cruise control. (removing AWS and ABS equipment)
I would prefer to keep the FMIC hidden. (no cutting out front bumper)

From what I've seen so far, ETS claims 980CFM/660HP, but the Spearco is only 790CFM. Any reasons why? Does this make ETS better?

Which is recommended, and why?



King of "nevermind I just searched the forum"

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broxma
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986017 posted 04/17/11 08:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Because dimension is almost last on the list of what makes a decent intercooler core. Having just a measurement tells you nothing about the number of internal channels, if the internal channels have externals on top and bottom or the plate instead, if the internal channels have turbulators, etc. The flow rating provided by each company is unlikely to be a number they got from testing. In addition, just having a flow rating doesn't tell you at what pressure drop or efficiency, and different manufacturers rate their cores with very low efficiencies, in order to appear to have massive flow, ala. 1000 HP Cores on Ebay which aren't even close to that capable.

If you want a good idea as to the core flow, from a very conservative perspective, check the Bell Intercooler site. (Warning, it will resize your window.) They have the 24x3x10 core listed as having actual flow of 406 CFM, and the 28x3.5x10.5 as 452. But see, Bell has their core flow rates from a tested 1 psi loss at 10 PSI flow. So, double flow PSI and you essentially double flow, but at increased drop across the core. Who knows what flow rate these companies you have listed are using to measure, and in essence, it doesn't matter.

Now, onto your specific dillemma, the more important number out of the three is actually, the height(10,10.5 in this case) and here is why. Lets say that the 24" long core, cools at 75% efficiency. Adding another 4"(up to 28) is not going to give you an equal improvement. In other words, if 24" = 75% adding 4" (1/6 of the original length) will not increase efficiency by 1/6. It will be exponentially smaller and smaller until there will be no amount more cooling which can occur. So the 24 is probably long enough, and the 28 isn't going to help to any degree worth squeezing it into the bumper.

The thickness, (3, 3.5) sort of uses this same principle, but at high speed becomes something that does matter. For a car you plan on running very consistently at high speeds, by all means, get a thick core. On a street car, 3" is about all the thickness the air goes through, and by the time it reaches the back, it's already hot. So 3 or 3.5, really a wash here. The only difference is flow and only by a small amount.

The height, if measured in identical core manufactures, dictates total frontal area and therefore, total cooling. It also is a measure of total internal channels, which as I said at the beginning, is very important. However, since we have no idea who makes the cores for these companies, how many channels they have per say 5", or anything else about them, this measurement is now meaningless. For all I know, the ETS has one internal.

So, Since these are both reputable companies, I would base my decision not on the technical aspects, since you can't know them, because they are never provided in reality, because there is no standard, but rather on my pocketbook. This is as most people do because almost no one actually know jack about intercoolers.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986020 posted 04/17/11 08:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
2-216 is a great core and has proven to work well throughout the years on many cars. It is also pretty much the biggest core in width and height that can be installed in our cars without excessive modification. If you run the piping out the back of the endtanks like on my car, you can keep your fogs. I also still have all amenities other than cruise, but I removed that for other reasons, not due to any fitment issues. It fits behind a JDM bumper without any modification, and fits behind a USDM bumper with some hacking to the support, but you can keep the urethane intact.





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broxma
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986025 posted 04/17/11 08:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
See? All those sizes and flow ratings BS...It all boils down to previous owner experience.

Ignore the statistics boys.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986120 posted 04/18/11 09:11 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

I would prefer to keep the FMIC hidden. (no cutting out front bumper)




I think that requirement pretty much seals the deal on your question. I don't think you'll find a good way to tuck a 2-216 behind an unmolested bumper cover. The ETS is unbeatable from an ease of install standpoint. Other than cutting the bumper support beam, it just slaps right on. People have made a good bit of power with them and it I know from experience, it can handle anything an E316g can dish out.


Edited by Dan D (04/18/11 09:12 AM)

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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986132 posted 04/18/11 10:26 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      


The 2-216 will fit without chopping up the urethane. You just gotta cut up the support. It's been done before...



-Mark

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SmoothCustomer
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986266 posted 04/18/11 09:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not only that but I'm rather certain you have to cut the support for the ETS as well. If I had to choose between one or the other I would probably go Spearco, but I've never owned either.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986352 posted 04/19/11 01:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well the ETS kit comes with bolt up piping, so thats nice, and yes you do have to cut your support for either of these intercoolers. As far as I know even the EVO8 IC requires cutting. The JDM stock IC is the only one that *might not require cutting. And I cannot say for sure.
-shamus



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VR_IV_MR
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986376 posted 04/19/11 06:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm sorry about not being clear. I don't mind cutting the bumper support. I just dont want to cut out the front part of the bumper, making the fmic visible. (the 3 horizontal pieces of plastic that fill up the big hole between the fog lights, are the pieces that I dont want to cut out)



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Dan D
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986474 posted 04/19/11 01:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
For clarity's sake:

ETS -
Cut Bumper core support (metal crash beam) = yes
Cut urethane bumper cover (the 3 horizontal pieces of plastic that fill up the big hole between the fog lights) = no

2-216 -
Cut Bumper core support (metal crash beam) = yes
Cut urethane bumper cover = TBD; I've never in 15 years seen anyone without a JDM bumper leave the all the slats intact but Wop says it can be done and since he has one...



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 986496 posted 04/19/11 01:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Everbody cuts out the slats on the USDM bumpers for looks, not really because it's required for fitment. If you can fit it behind a JDM bumper without cutting the urethane slats, like BrianAWD has, I guarantee it can be done on the USDM.



-Mark

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VR_IV_MR
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989598 posted 05/01/11 04:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
OK, so it seems like these intercoolers are a bit of overkill for the goals I have.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the assumption that an intercooler that is too large has a few negative aspects. For one, its extra weight and space taken in the bay. Second, too big of a core will effect spool up time if the turbo isn't large enough. I don't ever plan on exceeding 450hp, but lets just say 500hp capacity to be safe.

And come to think of it, if I don't need such a large intercooler, I may be able to get away with a vertical flow intercooler with super short piping to maximize spool on a 400whp setup??

Thoughts?


edit:

click

they have a kit 2-221 which says it has end tanks on the opposite sides and they specify that its for a GVR4. It uses the 2-115 core. Why would a GVR4 use end tanks on the opposite sides, but the ones for the DSM are on the same side?

I think this is what I really like as of right now. Anyone have a max HP on this core?

/edit



King of "nevermind I just searched the forum"


Edited by Lexington (05/01/11 01:02 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989605 posted 05/01/11 09:46 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Vertical flow is actually better due to the greater number of channels.

I like the Treadstone TRV Series intercoolers because they have nice cast endtanks (about 1/2 way down the page).



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Edited by GVR-4 (05/01/11 09:50 AM)

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VR_IV_MR
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989642 posted 05/01/11 02:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Going out on a limb here... please someone with more technical knowledge confirm if my assumption is correct.

If I am going to have 2.5" pipes, it seems to me like a 3.5" thick core is too large and would create not ideal airflow going from 2.5" pipe to 3.5" core and back into a 2.5" pipe. Also, I believe the 3.5" reduces the cooling for the radiator. Based on these two thoughts, I am leaning more towards a 3" thick core.

length--- considering everyone seems to have no problems fitting a 28" long 2-216 horizontal flow core (which needs endtanks on both sides), I figure a 24" long vertical flow core should be a safe bet when it comes to length, but if this is too much, then 18" should be enough for the 450max hp power range im looking for?

height--- I think 6" should be enough, and 8" would require more modifications to the car for minimal increase in power/cooling. (thoughts?)

so as of now, im thinking 3" thick, and 6" tall. I currently have a big 16g but if I were to upgrade, I am thinking about the FP HTA DSM76.

edit: if I got a Bell core off their site, then I would be able to do something like 3x20x6.

Basically all I need is a little input on how long you think the core can be. Is a 24" long core going to fit with the pipes coming out of one side or opposite sides? I dont care about losing foglights.



King of "nevermind I just searched the forum"


Edited by Lexington (05/01/11 03:13 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989688 posted 05/01/11 07:44 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That's a lot of theory. In practice in the real world, I doubt you'd notice any increase in spool time by going with the larger core. My FP3052 spools quick as shit. I also still have AC and don't see any negative effects regarding how well my cooling system works with that hunk of alloy sitting in front of it. And it gets into the triple digits in the summer here.



-Mark

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Edited by turbowop (05/01/11 07:45 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989708 posted 05/01/11 09:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How do you plan on mounting a vert. flow IC?
I'm just making sure you realize that a 6" core is going to be around 12" tall w/ the endtanks.



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VR_IV_MR
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989725 posted 05/01/11 10:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well Garfield says his universal core is 12" tall and says it fits with no problem.

Also TWEAKD4 has a 6" vertical Spearco 2-221 setup.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989760 posted 05/01/11 11:40 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting vapid:

How do you plan on mounting a vert. flow IC?
I'm just making sure you realize that a 6" core is going to be around 12" tall w/ the endtanks.



Side ways how else would you mount it



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 989900 posted 05/02/11 12:20 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Sorry. I was thinking of JDM bumper height.



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