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Need to RAISE my VR4 in the rear, what are my options?


BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215766 posted 09/02/15 04:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok guys, I know I've been on hiatus from these boards awhile... long story short - I'm coming up on HOPEFULLY finishing my Evo Brembo swap, I got the 3000GT rear trailing arms on, etc, everything bolted up and set it down to check before filling and bleeding the brakes and this is what I get:

Front looks fine





Back... not so much. Camber is all outta whack, and the tires are scrubbing the wheel wells - not what I want. Need to get the same height all around







I'm running Evo Bilsteins for the whole car, and they were fine on height before I swapped over the 3000GT components.
Anyone have some insight or ideas? This thing has been so frustrating I'm really regretting taking it on all together at this point.

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89Patches
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215767 posted 09/02/15 04:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
How is the front fine? Looks way too high. The only I can think of to get the back a bit higher is to run 2G upper shock mount or different springs

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215770 posted 09/02/15 04:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It is a little high for a lot of places, but the extra clearance is nice when you've got feet upon feet of snow that tends to fall (sometimes overnight) up here.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215771 posted 09/02/15 04:55 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Looks like the front should come down 2" and the rear up 1"? That should fix the negative camber in the rear too.

edit: in your case with snow 2" up in the rear and 1" down in the front. Time for a spring change



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Edited by Fiascoxl (09/02/15 04:58 PM)

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tyeler18
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215782 posted 09/02/15 08:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
What springs are you on? Obviously it shouldn't matter if it was fine before swapping. I assume same wheel setup before as well? And all you swapped over were trailing arms and brakes?



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tektic
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215783 posted 09/02/15 08:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do you have the full rubber spacer in the top? How do 3000gt rear springs fit? See if you can get the length on them.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215790 posted 09/02/15 10:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Whatever is installed in the rear, assuming the same rims before hand, made your track wider.

You won't be able to camber in those tires no matter what you try.

It would be adviseable to post all the parts you are using, from front to back.

Your car is undriveable in that condition, as I am sure you are aware.



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Edited by FlyingEagle (09/02/15 10:13 PM)

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tektic
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215796 posted 09/02/15 11:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
With longer upper control arms it shoud be manageable but will probably still need to lift it. How about stock galant rear springs?

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215798 posted 09/03/15 12:29 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting FlyingEagle:

Whatever is installed in the rear, assuming the same rims before hand, made your track wider.

You won't be able to camber in those tires no matter what you try.

It would be adviseable to post all the parts you are using, from front to back.

Your car is undriveable in that condition, as I am sure you are aware.




Tim, this swap definitely makes the track wider, it's the 3KGT hubs with the drum handbrake but it shouldn't affect the geometry between the rear subframe and the hub. Something else looks to be seriously wrong here.

Brandon both my cars are in the yard outside and both have this swap. Neither looks anything like that front or rear. One thing though, both cars do have coilovers so I honestly don't know how mounting points on fixed height suspension would work at both ends for this. As suggested by Tim make a list of all the parts you used particularly what year / model they came from and if it was a turbo or NA.

Also does anything look funky under the car? Can you get any shots of anything that doesn't look right with the geometry at either end? If something stands out post up and I can grab some pics from under my car. Should be able to figure it out mate. I'm a numpty but my cars are living proof it is possible. If I can't get you an answer, Ken certainly can.

The excessive camber bothers me, I can't help but think something is way off there but I also have a feeling the EVO struts are an issue. Don't you have to play about with springs to get the VR4 to sit level after using EVO struts? I'm betting that is at least part of the issue.

Edit: Also, what's the offset on those wheels?



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (09/03/15 01:24 AM)

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215799 posted 09/03/15 01:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      





I apologize for the state of the black car ... it's a work in progress ... sort of!



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215808 posted 09/03/15 07:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Think about this logically. The height of the wheel in the well is determined by

1) The length of the strut assembly
2) The spring rate of the spring
3) The weight of the rear of the car
4) The location of the upper strut mount
5) The location of the lower strut mount

From your post it seems like 1,2,3, and 4 didn't change. That only leaves #5. I was under the impression that the lower strut mount on a 3KGT arm was in the same spot relative to the hub centerline of a 1G/GVR4 but I could be wrong. It should be easy enough to check. If it's the same like I thought then that leaves something to do with the strut assembly.

Take a day off to get un-pissed at the thing and go back and double check the assembly.

Out of curiosity I'd also like to know what springs you are on.

EDIT: If those are Evo 8 Enkei's then the offset is +38



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
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Edited by CutlassJim (09/03/15 07:39 AM)

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strokin4dr
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215813 posted 09/03/15 08:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting cheekychimp:








Paul, didn't you have the evo wheels machined down a bit to achieve less poke?
Looks really good btw.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215820 posted 09/03/15 08:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If he has Evo suspension with no changes to springs or mounts, then 1, 2 and 4 have all likely changed as well. Need the complete component list as has been mentioned earlier.

Quoting CutlassJim:

Think about this logically. The height of the wheel in the well is determined by

1) The length of the strut assembly
2) The spring rate of the spring
3) The weight of the rear of the car
4) The location of the upper strut mount
5) The location of the lower strut mount

From your post it seems like 1,2,3, and 4 didn't change. That only leaves #5. I was under the impression that the lower strut mount on a 3KGT arm was in the same spot relative to the hub centerline of a 1G/GVR4 but I could be wrong. It should be easy enough to check. If it's the same like I thought then that leaves something to do with the strut assembly.

Take a day off to get un-pissed at the thing and go back and double check the assembly.

Out of curiosity I'd also like to know what springs you are on.

EDIT: If those are Evo 8 Enkei's then the offset is +38





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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215831 posted 09/03/15 09:49 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
He specifically said in his post that he was running the same suspension setup BEFORE the swap and it was fine. So from before the swap to after the swap 1,2 did not change. 4 would only be changed if he sawzalled the sheetmetal off the car and welded the perch in a different position, which I don't think he did.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215832 posted 09/03/15 10:05 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting cheekychimp:








Quoting strokin4dr:

Paul, didn't you have the evo wheels machined down a bit to achieve less poke?
Looks really good btw.




Yes, I think we took about 3mm off the inside just at the rear bringing it to roughly +41 (thanks Cutlass ) which seemed to work pretty well with the widened track. Still some camber at the back but it all seems to be in spec with no uneven tyre wear so I'm happy! Ironically I have a tiny spacer up front (about 2mm just to clear the 3KGT calipers) I'm probably going to have the calipers shaved and remove that spacer at some point but it is another thing I haven't got around to yet!



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (09/03/15 10:54 AM)

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215833 posted 09/03/15 10:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Shaving 3mm off the wheel hub of a +38 wheel would bring the offset to +41.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215837 posted 09/03/15 10:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting CutlassJim:

He specifically said in his post that he was running the same suspension setup BEFORE the swap and it was fine. So from before the swap to after the swap 1,2 did not change. 4 would only be changed if he sawzalled the sheetmetal off the car and welded the perch in a different position, which I don't think he did.





I've been thinking about this. Given that Brandon was using the exact same suspension setup both before and after, that, by a process of elimination, now makes me question that lower strut mount. Sure it is essentially located at the same point, everything bolts up without modifying anything (other than drilling out one bolt hole to a wider diameter) but are we 100% sure that the mounting point is at the exact same height relative to the ground?

In addition although I don't think any change in geometry would significantly affect ride height, I'm also wondering if there was anything in Tim's (Flying Eagle's) post above. It is certainly true that much of the extra track is created by the hubs themselves. The axle length doesn't change so I assumed the lower strut mount wouldn't be any wider either. But I know the black car in the above pictures has adjustable control arms. I 'thought' the grey car had 'stock' arms. Anyone know if VR4 and 3KGT control arms are the same length?

Unless something 'is' assembled incorrectly, I have a horrible feeling that rear strut/spring combo is too short for this setup. I hope I'm wrong but I'm now wondering why it was we went to coilovers on both my cars with this mod.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (09/03/15 10:58 AM)

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215838 posted 09/03/15 10:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting CutlassJim:

Shaving 3mm off the wheel hub of a +38 wheel would bring the offset to +41.




FUCK! It's late! Yeah sorry, my bad, but that was definitely what we did, shaved 3mm off the rears to bring them in slightly. It makes sense now that you mention it, I think we worked out with this mod the ideal offset at the rear was +42.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!


Edited by cheekychimp (09/04/15 08:06 AM)

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215841 posted 09/03/15 11:08 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well it should be SUPER easy to measure the difference between the two. If it is different though I'm not seeing it being that drastic of a change to make the rear camber in that much.

If the lateral arms were different lengths the toe would be way off which it doesn't appear to be in the photos. The camber is strictly from the geometry of the rear suspension.

If he does in fact need a longer strut assembly you could look into 2G strut tops or a strut spacer. I'm not sure that would give you the 2" you need though.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215852 posted 09/03/15 12:33 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks for all the replies, now I'm going to have to think of all the parts I have here, I'll come back with an edit or a new post when I get that together.

Front setup is using a Brembo adaptor from HERE
with evo rotors and full 1G front hub assemblies.

Rear is using 3000GT trailing arms, and rear evo rotors with a spacer behind them (hat height on this rotor makes it necessary to prevent the rotor scrubbing the rear hub), so that bumps the track out a bit more still.

Evo bilsteins all around, stock springs, Tein camber plates at the front, stock top bits on the rear.
Wheels are new with this setup, and they are stock Evo8 Enkei parts, no machining done, I needed to clear these brakes, but before this everything was 4 lug, so the plan was to do it all at once (swap to 5-lug, do the brakes, wheels, ABS delete at the same time so I only tore into it once). Before this I WAS using the bilsteins for a short time, with no issues (other than needing an alignment).


Edited by BrandonEchols (09/03/15 12:39 PM)

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tektic
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215891 posted 09/03/15 05:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I needed Evo tops for my springs to seat right. Sure your not missing a piece? Also fender rolling seems inevitable.

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215909 posted 09/04/15 05:44 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I just spoke to Ken (my mechanic) and the struts definitely will not work in the stock configuration ... sorry!

Sounds to me like it is either a strut top or spring perch issue (sorry my Cantonese doesn't quite stretch that far). I will be seeing him tomorrow so I will try to get a proper explanation and maybe some pictures. He said coilovers that allow you to alter ride height without altering spring tension may alleviate the problem as could a strut spacer as previously mentioned. However in order to do the job 'properly' he said that some 'surgery' is required.

I hope I didn't mislead you on this Brandon, stating that everything just bolted up. It turns out that Ken had already had my suspension prepared prior to the rear subframe swap so everything just bolted on. I never even knew it had been altered.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215912 posted 09/04/15 06:57 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Holy crap! I just looked at a bunch of images on Google and #5 on my list is what changed. The lower strut mounting point is WAY lower on a 3000GT arm than on a DSM. So you're going to need a longer strut assembly buddy.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215913 posted 09/04/15 07:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not the best angle for the DSM one but you can see that the mounting stud is only a few inches lower than the hub centerline



Here is a 3000GT arm with a MUCH lower mounting point.




ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1215916 posted 09/04/15 07:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   


On my car. Not a terribly good pic, I took it to show Dasith the 4-bolt but you can see the mounting point in relation to the hub.



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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