Hello All

My Name is Rob. Im the owner of a 1992 Galant VR4 #299.

A little about this car. I picked it up for $2,000. Sadly thought, it has been quite a headache. No im not new to DSMs, lol
Ive had to replace the transmission, as 1st gear was dead. The shifter linkage was shot. Waterpump was locked up. The tcase also was broke. The rears did not spin. The headgasket was redone, as i was told. The clutch was also shot. Besides all that, the motor did start, eventually...
Would have to crank it for a good while, pump the gas, and pray. Once it was started, it would run and not die.

Since getting the car home, ive replaced the waterpump. Swapped out the transmission with a 91 GSX, put in a aftermarket clutch.
Upgraded the 13G 390injectors. (which i find odd, since i believe they came with the 14b setup) Im sure someone couldve swapped it out along its way. I put back in a 14B, 450 injectors w/correct fuel rail and stock FPR.

I replaced the headgasket due to some pressure coming into the coolant system. The upper radiator hose would swell a bit.
The MLS headgasket and ARP headstuds were used. Cleaned up some of the wires.

But, that same issue is still around.... takes forever to start and have to pump the pedal.
We (my brother and i) rechecked all wires, all secure. i removed the plate thats covering the fuel pump.

Isnt the fuel pump suppose to prime? Upon turning the key? I turn the key and nothing happens ( i verified this by removing the fuel line right at the fuel pump and turning the car onto the start position. Not until a couple to three seconds of trying to start the car does the fuel start to pump, and it does come out in a nice stream. Could this be the problem? Needing a new fuel pump?

On a side note: I have checked out many of the cars on the site and i have to say i like a lot of them. Gives me some ideas of what mine should look like!

-Rob

 

[Terry Posten]

Yes, the ECU has a dual pump circuit. It uses the MPI relay just under the glove box.

As soon as you turn on the key to the run selection, you should here a click.

If not, I think Keydiver can make you a custom chip that turns on the FP without the CAS spinning.

Pull the ECU and look at the board inside.

I will post a link the the ECU thread i have that will help you find out if you have an ECU that needs work.

 

[Terry Posten]

click

 

Terry,
I appreciate the quick response. I will be sure to check that tomorrow and get back with you.
I have a couple EEPROM'd ECUs laying around. One with a keydiver chip (burned for 16G, 560cc, evo8/3G mas, etc)

I will check and see if i hear the click as you describe, if not, ill check for that relay and also, ill take pics of the ECU and post them.

-Rob

 

[turbowop]

The fuel pump shouldn't pump fuel until the CAS starts spinning. That's a safety feature built into the car so that in the event of an accident, the pump doesn't spray fuel out of broken lines onto hot surfaces or shorted out electrical connections.

I would pull the pump out of the tank and make sure the o-ring isn't torn. Or, if the pump uses a piece of fuel tubing to connect it to the output, check that it isn't cracked or damaged.

 

[cspetros]

Quoting turbowop:
The fuel pump shouldn't pump fuel until the CAS starts spinning. That's a safety feature built into the car so that in the event of an accident, the pump doesn't spray fuel out of broken lines onto hot surfaces or shorted out electrical connections.


Actually, the fuel pump will indeed activate when the ignition switch is turned to the "start" position, regardless if the engine (CAS) is turning or not. The MFI relay (the one that clicks) supplies power to the fuel pump, and has two ways of being activated: via the ignition switch being in the "start" position, or via the ECU when the engine is running (key in "on" position) (See L1 and L2 in the diagram).

Thusly, if your starter or a certain wiring harness connector (on the left of the engine bay) were somehow disconnected, and you turned the key to "start", you will (should) hear the fuel pump activate, even though the engine is not turning over at all.

I guess this means if you're in such a bad accident that your fuel lines up near the firewall get damaged, you shouldn't try to start the engine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif

Hope this helps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Thats what i thought.

Now that i think about it, i cannot recall ever hearing a click come from the engine bay (like in 1G TELs). I also do not recall hearing a click from inside the vehicle. I will be sure to check for that tomorrow.

Thanks for the help fellas.

-Rob

 

Quoting turbowop:
The fuel pump shouldn't pump fuel until the CAS starts spinning. That's a safety feature built into the car so that in the event of an accident, the pump doesn't spray fuel out of broken lines onto hot surfaces or shorted out electrical connections.

I would pull the pump out of the tank and make sure the o-ring isn't torn. Or, if the pump uses a piece of fuel tubing to connect it to the output, check that it isn't cracked or damaged.



Thanks for the advice, ill check this out as well.

btw, checked out your site. Nice looking ride. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif

 

[turbowop]

I just went out and turned my key on 1051 to the on position. Fuel pump never kicked on and my fuel pressure gauge didn't move at all. This is news to me if it's supposed to "prime" when you turn the key to the 'on' position. I think even Jeff O. has mentioned in the past that it's not supposed to do this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

*edit* Even in that image from the service manual it says fuel pumps during engine cranking and when the engine is running. It doesn't say anything about priming when the key is switched to the 'on' position. I didn't bother to go over the diagram though, so maybe I'm wrong? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

*edit again* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif

Okay, so I reread your post and see that you're saying that fuel should pump when the key is set to the 'start' position. Well, if you turn the key to the start position, the cas is going to spin and the pump is going to pump. Why would anybody want to turn the key to the 'start' position without a starter installed anyway? There is still no priming of the system by just turning the key to the 'on' position, which is what I was originally trying to point out.

 

[cspetros]

If you're listening for the click, it will be coming from inside, under the dash on the passenger side of the car (that's where the relay is at). You mentioned that fuel started flowing after 3 seconds, so the relay must be activating. You'll hear it when you turn the key to "start".

 

[cspetros]

Quoting turbowop:
I just went out and turned my key on 1051 to the on position. Fuel pump never kicked on and my fuel pressure gauge didn't move at all.



I said the fuel pump activates when the key is in the "Start" position (cranking), not the "On" position. If the key is in the "On" position, the engine must be running in order for the fuel pump to operate. I was saying that when cranking ("Start"), the fuel pump operates regardless of the engine turning over (via the conditions listed); no CAS required.

You are right about turning the key without a starter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[turbowop]

As you can see by my edits, I realized that. You threw me off when you said putting the key to the start position would run the fuel pump on without the engine spinning. I'm not sure why you would ever want to do that? Most people are under the false impression that the fuel pump "primes" the system when the key is set to the 'on' position, which is misinformation that I try to correct.

I was just trying to answer this question:

Quoting Kngnothg:


Isnt the fuel pump suppose to prime? Upon turning the key? I turn the key and nothing happens ( i verified this by removing the fuel line right at the fuel pump and turning the car onto the start position. Not until a couple to three seconds of trying to start the car does the fuel start to pump, and it does come out in a nice stream. Could this be the problem? Needing a new fuel pump?

 

[cspetros]

Quoting turbowop:
Why would anybody want to turn the key to the 'start' position without a starter installed anyway?


I wanted to make it clear that there was another way in which the fuel pump is activated. I mentioned the starter/connector because that is one way (lack of engine rotation) to rule out the CAS as a requirement for the pump to run. Furthermore, I wanted to say that fuel would still flow during an attempt to crank, even in the event of an accident where fuel lines are severed.

Sorry if I threw you off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif. I think we are in agreement now, right?

 

[turbowop]

Sneaky bastard. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yeah, we're in agreement. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Update:
The ECU shows some acid damage. I will post up pictures this afternoon.

Side Note: Swapped in a 92 5spd Turbo ECU and still has a hard time starting...the MPI relay i also swapped out. it does click only after 2-3seconds of the motor turning.

 

[steve]

Welcome. Where's your crown?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/keke.gif

 

[toybreaker]

As has been previously covered, there's multiple coils inside the mfi relay, and two of them both control the same output (for the fuel pump)

It sounds like the ecu(s) are picking up the cas signal and turning the pump on when the engine is rotating. That's good news because it verifies a lot of current paths and control systems.

The other leg that controls the fuel pump is stone cold simple. 12 volts comes down from the key in the start position, flows thru the coil, and then straight to ground. This leg of the mfi relay does not even need the ecu in the car to function and turn on the fuel pump.

The two wires that would be the most interesting to check are both easily found at the mfi relay.

The black/yellow wire is the 12v start signal. Anytime the key is in the start position, there should be 12volts present on this wire. (terminal 9 of the mfi relay)

The black wire is the ground circuit for this coil. (terminal 6 of the mfi relay) It should read ground potential all the time. This should show very little resistance, (like .3 ohm or less,) when you put one lead on a good ground and back probe the black wire harness at the mfi relay.

If you find there isn't 12v present on the starter input (black/yellow) start working your way back towards the key.

If you find there is no ground present on the ground leg (black wire), check the grounds over on the passenger side b-pillar.

[edit] just looked on alldata, and it shows the factory ground for the mfi relay is out on the firewall in the engine compartment. (in the vicinity of the brake master cylinder reservoir) Huh, not logical, but there you go...they're piggy backing it on the other set of ecu grounds up there. Make sure those grounds are clean, dry and tight!

Good luck, and please update this thread and let us know what you find. This isn't a common failure and it would be good to have the fix accounted for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Quoting steveGLS:
Welcome. Where's your crown?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/keke.gif



Someone stole it!!!

Toybreaker, thanks for the info! i will report my findings this evening.

-Rob

 

Here are some pics of the ECU

 

[Terry Posten]

Typicle, we'll get that fixed up for you.