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check these logs, found knock

If some of you would be so kind as to take a look at these. Knock count of 33 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif .

I've uploaded two logs to my cox account. here And here

Thanks
 

brisvr4

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2004
Messages
955
Location
brisbane australia
To my untrained eye it does seem to be running lean. The timing seems high as well considering that it would have been getting pulled at those knock levels.
You might want to check your base timing first.
What setup are you running? i.e injectors etc.

Tim
 

Here is the basics

* HKS 272/272 intake and exhaust camshafts
* Forrester ported head with over sized valves, titanium retainers, springs, etc.
* AMS built and O-ringed bottom end including JE, Ross, and ARP products
* Moroso aluminum oil pan
* TMO/Keydiver Chip stage III with raised rev limiter
* Extrude Honed USDM spec intake manifold
* HKS VPC with 550 chip and Apexi S-AFC
* Paxton fuel pressure regulator, filters, and pump with custom bracketing.
* ND 660 injectors
* -10 and -8 Braided fuel lines, modified fuel rail, fuel cell.
* ThreeSpeed 3" aluminum lower and stainless upper intercooler pipes and a Spearco 2-197 intercooler.
* AGP T3/T4 Garrett turbo (60-1)
* Cast iron T3 exhaust manifold
* 35 mm Tial external wastegate
* ThreeSpeed 3" o2 eliminator
* 3" press bent steel exhaust with Magna flow muffler

Still having a problem with cold starts and the engine not wanting to idle.

Haven't checked base timing yet. I'm ready to trade this car in for a toyota prius.
 

turbowop

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Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
I can't see them since I don't have excel on my home PC. Do you have a wideband? If it's running lean in certain spots, try adding some fuel?
 

i have no idea what all that is.. looks like a foriegn language to me.. all hail the newbie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
 

ktmrider

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,128
Location
Tempe, AZ
I'm with Tim, rich on the bottom ( low trim 81% ) and lean at 4200rpm where the knock rears up.
This leans ( pun intended ) toward a bad FPR. My Scoobaru did the same thing when the vac line came off, ran crappy at idle ( too much fuel ) then leaned out when positive boost kicked in ( not enough fuel ).
Also try to include the IDC %, it will help determine if the injectors are running out.
 
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why would you run a keydiver chip and a vpc? I would think either one or the other. You have some nice goodies in that motor for sure.
 

CP

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Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
8,938
Location
West Simsbury, CT
What range should timing be in during a pull with no knock? I did a few pulls the other day (at 23psi with a E316G) and was seeing mid 11s on my wideband, with timing in the 13-17 range.
 

Ktmrider, How can I check my fpr to see if it is malfunctioning?

What is idc? There is one parameter on my logger that will absolutely not respond to clicks from the wand, it may be that one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

Chris, the chip and vpc/safc combo was on the car when I bought it. I thought they all work together for better adjustment of air and fuel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Thanks for the input so far guys.
 

ktmrider

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Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,128
Location
Tempe, AZ
You will need a pressure gauge on the fuel rail to check the regulator. Simply remove the vac line to the FPR while engine is on and idling, fuel pressure should rise about 5-8psi or so depending on idle speed and cams. If it does not change, bad FPR.
In addition the pressure at idle should be 38-43psi or so, depending on your application/HP.
IDC = Injector Duty Cycle measured in percentage ( % ). This is feedback from the ECU on how long it has to fire the injectors to obtain the target AFR. High numbers ( 85% or more ) indicate you don't have big enough injectors OR could indicate a low performing/sticky injector(s).
Other items: crappy fuel, clogged fuel filter, base timing, too "hot" spark plugs, weak fuel pump.
 
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Dialcaliper

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Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
1,287
Location
Mountain View, CA
IDC = injector duty cycle. Anything over 80%, and the injector can't fully close, and you're basically dumping fuel in. at 100%, the injectors are wide open, and can't supply any more fuel.

Also, a log that includes the Airflow value that the ECU is recieving (in this case, the fake one that the VPC is sending)

Second, post another log for full throttle from 2500 RPM or lower in 3rd or 4th gear - it's hard if it's only a problem under boost from that log, or something else.

The chip, vpc and safc combo are probably causing you some timing problems. The If the chip is for stock injectors, it already has more aggressive timing compared to stock levels at the same airflow.

The VPC (with the wrong injector size setting) and SAFC are both fooling the computer into thinking the engine is receiving less air than it should be (while the bigger injectors are supplying more fuel).

The net result is that the timing curve is way off what it should be, and the ECU thinks you have less boost (estimated by airflow) so it's using much more advanced timing. You might be able to add more fuel with the SAFC to compensate, but to get to where you need to be on timing, you may end up too rich.

What boost on the 60-1 are you running. That's a pretty big turbo, and some aggressive mods to be controlling with just devices that tweak airflow and no timing control if you are pushing the boost high.

I really suspect you have an airflow reading/timing problem.

Things I'd try:

1) Check your base timing.

2) Add more fuel with the SAFC - this will let the computer know more air is coming in, so it will both add fuel and retard timing as well.

3) If that doesn't work, try retarding your base timing and see if it helps.

4) Raise your base fuel pressure.

5) Lower your boost and retune for the aggressive timing.

The best long term option is if the chip is actually made by Keydiver and not TMO, send it in to be reflashed, or get a new, properly mapped chip for the right sized injectors. The VPC will still cause problems unless you have it set back to 450's (stock) in this case. Alternately, he may be able to program a chip to compensate for the VPC 550 setting.
 
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You're just going to have to deal with that 81% LOW TRIM, every VPC/272 cam combo I've ever seen gets that because of the poor vacuum at idle. But, you need to contact me at [email protected] to see what injectors, base fuel pressure, compression ratio, and octane that chip was made for, and tell me what you are running now.
 

turbowop

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Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
Even with my maftpro setup and 272's I have an 81% low trim. If I try to tune it for a better trim at idle, it screws up everything else. If it weren't for the stupid number, I would never know as it runs perfectly fine at idle. When the car is modified that heavily, one needs to get away from thinking the car needs to have perfect 100% trims. It's not needed anyway, IMO.

When I drive my car around town for a few days, my low, mid, and high trims are all around 81%. As soon as I take it out for a 2hr drive on the freeway, they go up to anywhere from 90-110%. I don't pay much attention to trims anymore since driveability and gas mileage in my car is great and they make zero difference on WOT pulls anyway.

Jeff, have you received the PM's I've been sending you regarding my chip? I haven't heard anything. Perhaps I should just email you at that address instead?
 
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Of course, injector duty cycle = idc. So many things to think about and that slipped my mind.

Boost was only about 13 psi as seen under "Baro" in both logs.
 

jepherz

Staff member
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
7,877
Location
KC, Missouri
Can one of you fellows explain why 272 cams with bad vacuum would result in a low fuel trim of 81%? I would have figured if your vacuum was bad, your FPR is adjusting correctly anyways, since it's 1:1 rising rate.
 

The VPC is MAP sensor-based, so when it sees low vacuum it *assumes* that you have your foot into the gas and it needs to add a lot of fuel.
 

Champ_168

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
127
Location
IL
Well, based on your first log...your WOT pull...
your car is obviously running lean...if you dont have a wideband you want the narrowband to at least read 0.88-0.94 (.88 being on the lean side, .94 pbeing on the rich side, so you want to be in the middle of that range)

You will need lot more fuel at Wot...My guess would be 10-15% more fuel at least...
you get that much timing and knock at the same time when your car is extra lean, that the computer dont know what ot do with itself. Depeding on your boost 18-22 degrees of timing is ok.... but just not on the tune you have...

But you realy want to be around 18-20 degrees on pump gas and on less than 25psi. Any more boost you will need to pull more timing. only way to pull timing in your setup is to add fuel.

Now for the goofy sh!t you should fix....
You have 660cc injectors, a key diver chip probably set for 450cc, and vpc with a 550 chip. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. All these things conlit each other and you will never get a clean cruise, mybe a clean wot, but probably not the best...
with your turbo you problably should at least go with 1150cc jsut to have the extra room to grow with your setup.

but if you are not willing to upgrade injectors, you should at the very least do this...
Get a keydiver chip for your 660cc injectors, and get a 450cc chip for your vpc. Doing this might help with your cold start and poor idle, as long as your fiav and isc are good. also, you have to make sure you set teh gain knob properly on your vpc, ths is what most people have troubles with and messes up their idle.

you always...i mean always get the ecu chiped to compensate for the injectors, this way you dont have to fight conflicting piggy backs, and you can jsut set the piggybacks to zero. So you can start with a good baseline.

with that said..I dont have time to help you with your cruising tune.


Hope this helps. Just dont blow teh damn thing up, Harry spent a lot of time on it.
Disclaimer: this is all generalzed information, use it best you can..
Also, all things being equal, I am assuming you know what you are doing, and you have no boost leaks, all sensors are with in spec, and everythign lse is good...
Make Sure Base timig is set to 5, and AFPR is set to 37.5.
 
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Champ thanks. Believe me the last thing I want to do is kill the engine. This is why I am tryin to gather as much info as possible.

OT but what is your guys opinion on a ems system called Pro EFI? I was recently told that it is a superior product to AEM's EMS. I think the harness is made by Delphi.

Thanks to the rest of you too for responding.
 

Champ_168

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
127
Location
IL
Based on the fact you could not diagnosis your knocking problem on your own. I would highly recommend you not getting a stand alone system of any type. Learning curve is pretty step, but it is much more benefical in the end. (not aying you cant learn it)

My suggestion to you is...To wait for dsmlink to come out with V3. It is suppose to be very nice, and should be a lot better than the current version.

It will be have almsot everything you need and will control everythign you really dont need to worry about to much. Ease of base tuning, ease of wot tuning, and very good suport forum.

There is no estimated time of its release date, other than "very soon"

Good motto to follow... K.I.S.S ... (google it if you dont know what it means)
Especially if you want to enjoy the car on a daily basis...Not saying you cant enjo a car on a stand alone, but for the masses its pretty simple and powerful tuning tool. I have enjoyed my cars with couple differnt standalones.. link plus, autronic, and aem, but by far is dsmlink is so much more enjoyable. Since I am not constantly on my laptop tweaking things with dmlink.
On stand alone, the tune is never perfect, and if you have tuning OCD like me it will require constant little tweaking with every temperature change, gas fil up, minor or major mods, pretty much any change the car sees at all. It all becomes like second nature with a standalone though, Once it becomes routine it is like anythign else, you jsut get use to having to deal with it...Like bruhing your teeth or wiping your hole, pushing in a heavy clutch or shifting into a gear that would normally grind if someone else drives your car...

Just my opinion on it.
 
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