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#14 Build I'm going 9's or bust!

I told myself i would wait til i was done with the car before i started a build thread but i have had a few people asking to see what i was doing so here are a few pics of my engine

11spieh.jpg

rko36t.jpg

3522lxc.jpg

2vn0z2h.jpg
 

.020 over bore, 10.5:1 custom Arias Pistons, Custom Aluminum rods, Custom 100mm crank, concrete filled, Kiggly Girdle, copper oring deck, Fox Lake CNC head, Supertech Dual Springs, +1mm valves, Inconnel exhaust, Kelford 288 cams. Going to run Methanol on a small turbo first , i am thinking FP 3586HTA which should get me close to 900hp and then step up to something bigger once we get the car dialed in. I will post up pics of the chassis this week just finishing up the cage .
 

alansupra94

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Looks like crap quality stuff to me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I run aluminum rods in my 2JZGTE and they seriously free up a-lot of rotating mass. What is the rev limit going to be on the car? 10K?
 

The problem with the 2.3 is the rod ratio is terrible and the piston speed is crazy. At 8500rpm it has the same or faster piston speed than an F1 car but that being said crank, piston and rod manufacturer said 9500 rpm would be the limit. Funny thing about the 2JZ we are building a 2.2 4B11 with aluminum rods and they are almost the same rods . The rod builder is using his 2JZ rod blank on the Evo X engine just narrowing it a bit. I was shocked that the 4B11 has a 23mm wrist pin!
 
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DougPorcaro

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Racine, WI
Looks very nice! And I sure hope you eventually go bigger than a 3586. You have probably an 1100+ capable engine there!
 

For me I feel copper seals a lot better than stainless . It is soft and will create a better seal but can only be used once then you need to replace the copper ring. Stainless can be used over and over but i don't feel like it gives a good seal , I had even thought about a solid copper head gasket without the copper rings but we have had such good luck with the Mitsubishi MLS gasket (the best).
 
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I have a lot more testing to do before i go bigger than the 3586HTA(also considering PTE6765 billet). I think i can hit 900whp on methanol with this turbo and my GVR4 should weigh around 2500lbs so it should get into the low nines if not quicker with ease. There are a lot of theories about my 2.3 this is kind of a test engine. In the past 2.3 engines were street only if you pushed them past 8500 rpm they would blow up. Their torque curves would fall off quick as well. A lot of new parts have come out since these test were done so i am going to try something different. I think if it works i will run the new Garrett GTX4202. I also have an aluminum rod 2.0 , 11:1 comp short block in the works as well just in case, i know those work.
 
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Brianawd

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How custum are your aluminum rods? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Are they like a one off set you had some one make. Or are they just like all the rest of the off the shelf aluminum rods you can get from say R&R,BME,GRP,Groden for a 4g
 

We use R&R for all of our aluminum rods but they won't fit so i had Groden make me a set of blanks and they were moified by a friend.Never use the rod bolts Groden uses either ARP 8740 on an aluminum rod is a bad idea
 

Brianawd

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Quote:
Never use the rod bolts Groden uses either ARP 8740 on an aluminum rod is a bad idea




Thats a blind statement. Realy if you know your load values and your max rpm you will know what rod bolt will work best for your app.. Fact is most prostock cars running aluminum rods and spin to 8k still use 8740 because they have not surpassed the load limit of the 8740 bolts.

I would use ARP8740 rod bolts befor I would ever use Groden rods. But that just me.
 
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Pro stock is NA and i doubt anyone is using 8740 on their $100,000 engines.Pro stock gngines spin up to 10,000 RPM and their FPS is up their with F1. You could use 8740 on a SB Chevy that spins to 7500 RPM but why? Aluminum is a lot tougher on rod bolts than steel. Most of my rod knowledge is from Mike at R&R and he doesn't even offer 8740 bolts as an option and with a boosted application never. My statement was also aimed more at the 4G63 since you can only run a 3/8 bolt on an aluminum rod and you would spinning an engine past 10,000 rpm with 40+psi of boost with a 1.7 rod ratio. Groden rods are not bad, he has had issues with the threads pulling out of the rods. What happens is the 8740 bolt will stretch from the abuse of the aluminum rod ,once you try to remove a bolt that has stretched it will pull out the threads. AMS use to run Grodens on their drag car after 2 years one finally cracked. Not even Eagle will run 8740 bolts in a 4G63.
 

Brianawd

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Quote:
Pro stock is NA and i doubt anyone is using 8740 on their $100,000 engines.Pro stock gngines spin up to 10,000 RPM and their FPS is up their with F1. You could use 8740 on a SB Chevy that spins to 7500 RPM but why? Aluminum is a lot tougher on rod bolts than steel. Most of my rod knowledge is from Mike at R&R and he doesn't even offer 8740 bolts as an option and with a boosted application never. My statement was also aimed more at the 4G63 since you can only run a 3/8 bolt on an aluminum rod and you would spinning an engine past 10,000 rpm with 40+psi of boost with a 1.7 rod ratio. Groden rods are not bad, he has had issues with the threads pulling out of the rods. What happens is the 8740 bolt will stretch from the abuse of the aluminum rod ,once you try to remove a bolt that has stretched it will pull out the threads. AMS use to run Grodens on their drag car after 2 years one finally cracked. Not even Eagle will run 8740 bolts in a 4G63. Quote:



Call BME or GRP and see what they have to say about running 8740 rod bolts. Also it was not the rod bolts on the Grodens that was causing the problem. I would know as I was running APR2000 and it pulled the treads. It the shitty build of the rods.

Even with a 4g not every person running alum rods is going to be spinning the motor to 10k and running 40+psi. AS I said befor
if you know your load values and your max rpm you will know what rod bolt will work best for your app..
 

BME uses ARP 2000 bolts in any non NA application (who i talked to a few months back) GRP whos old owner now owns MGP only uses A1 technology fasteners similar to an L19. V8 rods use a larger diameter fastener than us. They are able to get a higher clamping load with a 7/16 fastener. If they had to run 3/8 bolts in their v8 rods you would not see 8740 bolts. May i ask what torque specs you used when you went to ARP2000 3/8 24 bolt? What did you do about the big end? If you are not going to spin the engine up in RPM or run higher boost levels an aluminum rod isn't really a good choice for a street 4G63 anyway.
 

3/8 ARP 8740 torque spec 39ft/lbs w moly clamping load 10,512
3/8 ARP 2000 torque spec 49ft/lbs w moly clamping load 13,140
7/16 ARP 8740 torque spec 62 ft/lbs w moly clamping load 14,220


This is why they can use 8740 7/16 on their run of the mill V8 rods. It is stronger than an ARP 2000 series 3/8 . You would need an L19 or 625 to get the same clamping load in a 4G63 rod. I am also not the biggest fan of Groden either just dealing with him is a pain. I would rather use R&R which i have in my 2.0 if they can take 1500hp in a 4G63 they are good enough for me. But i wanted to try something different and i had to make some sacrifices .
 
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Brianawd

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Quote:
If you are not going to spin the engine up in RPM or run higher boost levels an aluminum rod isn't really a good choice for a street 4G63 anyway.




Why and don't tell me its because aluminum rods have a shot life span and have to be changed out after so many passes. The advantages you get from running aluminum rods on a hp application still work on a lower hp app.

As for the torque I used on the grodens. It was 50ft/lbs as per Grodens instruction using 30W oil. The problem with his rods is almost half the rod bolt thread are not being used. That in turn puts more stress on the threads that are being used.
 

If you were using ARP 2000 bolts you should have done 49ft lbs with moly and checked for bore distortion. You want about a 70-75% yield on any bolt. You cannot use torque specs for an 8740 bolt on an ARP2000 bolt, could have been part of your problem. Like i said i would have rather had R&R rods but we have also used a few sets of Grodens with out issue. I know English had some issue with some and none with others maybe we have gotten lucky but we do modify the bolts and torque specs. Yes, you can run aluminum rods on the street no problem as long as you want to do the extra up keep. I usually advise my customers to run a steel rod on the street.
 
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Brianawd

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Quote:
If you were using ARP 2000 bolts you should have done 49ft lbs with moly and checked for bore distortion. You want about a 70-75% yield on any bolt. You cannot use torque specs for an 8740 bolt on an ARP2000 bolt, could have been part of your problem. Like i said i would have rather had R&R rods but we have also used a few sets of Grodens with out issue. I know English had some issue with some and none with others maybe we have gotten lucky but we do modify the bolts and torque specs. Yes, you can run aluminum rods on the street no problem as long as you want to do the extra up keep. I usually advise my customers to run a steel rod on the street.




The difference between 50ft/lbs and 49ft/lbs is not going to make a difference. I torqued the rods to the spec the person that made them told me to as that was the torque used for finale machining of the rod. Also the rods were checked before they were used for out of round with them torqued at 50ft/lbs.

I don't know what you mean by extra up keep. About the only thing you need to do different is run a heaver weight oil. Lot of people think you need to check the torque on the rod bold every so often but that is a bad idea as you are just putting undo stress on the treads when checking the torque. If you really feel that they need to be checked then you can measure for stretch.

Good luck with your build.
 

oil vs moly is huge difference in torque spec.I don't care to use oil on an aluminum rod. Steel or cast is fine . I think it is around 39 ft lbs with moly on a Groden . It is about 10 extra ft/lbs with ARP 2000 bolt so about a 20% increase that is why i check the big end.If you used ARP2000 bolts with oil it would be around 60ft/lbs. I like to recheck rod bolts and pull a rod to check for cracks. The modified 7000 series aluminum they use is so rigid i like to take a look every 5,000 on a street engine. Aluminum will fatigue over time unlike its steel counterpart. This is why you don't see OEM aluminum rods i don't care what any aftermarket aluminum rod company says.
 
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