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12:54 - Restate my assumptions


broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880418 posted 03/09/10 01:21 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
1. The Evo VIII turbo will not fit the Galant VR4 as a bolt on solution. 2. The first reason for this is the direction the turbo faces is opposite the normal direction. 3. The second reason for this is if bolted straight to the block in its normal position, the downpipe would have to be in the space taken by the lateral subframe support due to the exit of the O2 housing of the flipped turbo. 4. The oil feed, water lines and return lines are in totally different locations compared to the factory setup. 5. Various other clearance issues will prevent proper mounting of the turbo making it impossible.

Step 1 - Acquire tubular Evo VIII manifold and Evo VIII turbo/O2. Step 1 completed. DNP Manifold acquired. Evo VIII turbo w/10.5 hotside acquired.
Step 2 - Cut the turbo mounting flange and rotate it 180 degrees, lining up the symmetrical holes of the flange with the hacked pipes and reweld. Not completed.
Step 3 - Downpipe should now sit in near factory location +3-4 inches due to shift to the drivers side of the flange in relation to the manifold.
Step 4 - Hack centers of water lines and return lines if necessary to accommodate new route for lines.
Step 5 - Use Stainless flexible feed line from oil port to top of turbo.

The exhaust side of the turbo would sit significantly closer to the radiator as the turbo would be facing the wrong direction. Normally, the exhaust side is tucked under the manifold close to the block but now it would be facing outward an up a bit. The O2 housing would still fire in generally the same direction and may allow for some cutting of the manifold runners to better square up the turbo in order to bring the exhaust side in a bit, closer to the block. The downpipe will have to be modified to line up with the new rotation and position of the O2 outlet, again, not a big deal. I have already flipped the alternator to the rear with a JayRacing kit so my clearance on the current hotside is very good. More clearance could be gained with a forward facing oil filter housing but my early estimates are that it wont be needed. The water and oil lines are a simple solution so no need to worry about those honestly. The other major consideration is the direction of the turbo compressor outlet. I believe a new pipe would have to be fabricated to redirect the compressor outlet towards the front of the car, again, an easy solution.

1:17 - Restate my assumptions.

1. The Evo VIII turbo will not fit the Galant VR4 as a bolt on solution. 2. The first reason for this is the direction the turbo faces is opposite the normal direction. 3. The second reason for this is if bolted straight to the block in its normal position, the downpipe would have to be in the space taken by the lateral subframe support due to the exit of the O2 housing of the flipped turbo. 4. The oil feed, water lines and return lines are in totally different locations compared to the factory setup. 5. Various other clearance issues will prevent proper mounting of the turbo making it impossible.

5. All of these obstacles can be overcome.

Enter Evo VIII Turbo Experiment. I shall update this individual to my build post.

/brox

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Muskrat
Senior Member
665/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880439 posted 03/09/10 06:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Please don't take this the wrong way, as I think it's awesome you're being creative and attempting this. As far as I know no one has done it.

What is the advantage of the Evo 8 turbo? It's essentially a 16g with twin scroll. Is the spool advantage of a twin scroll 16g worth all the cost and fabrication associated with this? What's motivating you to attempt this?



Brian L.
91 Galant VR-4 #665/2000

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524of1000
Crossed Member
524/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880442 posted 03/09/10 07:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think it's more of a "Why? Bcause I can!" scenario. I think it would be pretty cool to have what could be the only Evo 8 turbo in a VR4. Have fun with it!



America was raised on speed. Hot, Nasty, Bad ass speed. - Eleanore Roosevelt, 1936

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2of9
Hellaflush
808/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880446 posted 03/09/10 07:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Let us know how it goes. It's always great to see the "nearly impossible" be done. Good Luck



#808/1000
Team Nines DSM Specialist

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880454 posted 03/09/10 08:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
8:23 - Restate my assumptions

1. Fabrication cost will be 0.00 dollars.
2. The evidence presented suggests that 0.00 dollars is significantly less than the cost of an equal sized bolt on turbo.
3. The stock Evo turbo has proven to be reliable upwards of 30 PSI and remain in its efficiency range, and produce in excess of 450 HP on highly modified motors. (520+ for the Evo IX turbo - Source English Racing, EvoM.net)
4. My goals are not so lofty as to expect these types of results but they should be at least comparable or better than traditional systems.
5. Because I can.

I have a complete shop which can basically do anything I need to do. I have even considered not flipping the turbo flange and just running the intake into the space now vacated by the alternator, in which case, I would simply build a custom lateral brace to avoid the now moved O2 housing exit position, the system would almost be a bolt on. The downpipe would need to be rebuilt to adjust to the new location but that is probably going to happen regardless of which way the turbo faces. I have not yet installed the motor back into the car due to the rebuild that is currently ongoing, but everything from my early testing to the actual construction will be posted for all to see. I do welcome the feedback. I have received a message about the install of a Evo X turbo on a 1G but that is a different placement and honestly, looks alot easier. I think this will be a challenge.

/brox

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Garfield Wright
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880466 posted 03/09/10 08:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
This has been done before with the Evo 8+ turbo but not on a gvr4. It's not an easy task but if you have the means (skills, equipment & time) to get it done, then your only out time. Something different just because. It's this kind of thinking why Mitsubishies & dsms are so far ahead of the tuner world today.

You mentioned 'space vacated by the alternator'. I take it you relocated it? We have a 2g @ the shop with the evo 8+ turbo setup. The o2 housing is maybe 1/8" away from the alternator. This is because whoever installed it used a hammer to massage it for a little clearance. I'll post some pictures later today when I get to the shop.

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Polish
Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880504 posted 03/09/10 10:52 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I didn't read all this so it may have been mentioned but Dent Sport Garage did this a LONG time ago.

The general consensus was that it was not worth the trouble over a standard Evo3 turbo...



My car site
Old GVR4 #1186/2000

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slugsgomoo
god hates stupid people
461/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880506 posted 03/09/10 10:56 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
People have done over 500whp on the Evo3 16g as well, what's your point? unless you have a setup that is built to be taken to the absolute limit, you'll never see that.

Most of those guys are running aluminum rod race motors, 10:1 or higher compression ratios, beefy cams, etc etc.

I think it's a pipe dream, and doing it with the VIII instead of the IX makes it a huge waste of time, since you can do the same thing with an evo3 for way less hassle.

It's all about the supporting mods.



-andrew
{witty signature}
#461 Kensington Grey - 2.0L/T67/etc
2015 Triumph Tiger 800 XCx
2014 Ford Focus ST

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Hertz Galant VR4.org Administrator
OneTitle to rule them all.
77/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880509 posted 03/09/10 11:09 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wrong. An Evo III 16g is not twin-scroll. You'll have different spool characteristics. It's not always about peak HP, but area under the curve.

Show me the E3 is the "same thing" as an Evo VIII turbo and I'll reconsider.



Ryan Hertz

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slugsgomoo
god hates stupid people
461/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880516 posted 03/09/10 11:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
on a 9:1 motor my evo3 built 20 psi at 2500 rpm I can't really see where twin scroll on a motor with more compression is going to be that much more worthwhile. Sure you might get N/A feeling power, but if that's all you care about, build a 2.3/2.4 or buy a v8.

Given that no one who's done this has said that it was really worth it, I don't see why everyone keeps trying to reinvent the wheel.



-andrew
{witty signature}
#461 Kensington Grey - 2.0L/T67/etc
2015 Triumph Tiger 800 XCx
2014 Ford Focus ST

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solidviper89
Patty Purex
0425/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880532 posted 03/09/10 12:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting broxma:

8:23 - Restate my assumptions

5. Because I can.


/brox



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sixsixtwo
Member
662/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880533 posted 03/09/10 12:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I say go for it. At the end of the day, not everything is about having the most hp. If you have the skills and equipment necessary, then more power to you. You can't really say that many people have done it and you'd have something that you made with your own hands, not the bolt on turbo that everyone and their mom has



-662/2000: Lawn ornament/grass killer
-97 Eclipse GSX: DD

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iceman69510 Galant VR4.org Moderator
Turn Right Racing
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880534 posted 03/09/10 12:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It Couldn’t Be Done

Somebody said that it couldn’t be done,
But, he with a chuckle replied
That "maybe it couldn’t," but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it.

Somebody scoffed: "Oh, you’ll never do that;
At least no one has done it";
But he took off his coat and he took off his hat,
And the first thing we knew he’d begun it.
With a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it.

There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle it in with a bit of a grin,
Just take off your coat and go to it;
Just start to sing as you tackle the thing
That "couldn’t be done," and you’ll do it.


Poem link



91 VR4 855 Nile Black
92 VR4 828 Belize Green-SOLD
91 VR4 115 Nile Black -SOLD

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jepherz Galant VR4.org Moderator
Too Clean
1881/2000
50/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880537 posted 03/09/10 12:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do it. I'm thinking about using an evo9 turbo for a 4g63 project, but it won't be in a galant so it will be much easier.



-Jeff
1881/2000
50/1000

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Hertz Galant VR4.org Administrator
OneTitle to rule them all.
77/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880547 posted 03/09/10 01:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting slugsgomoo:

on a 9:1 motor my evo3 built 20 psi at 2500 rpm I can't really see where twin scroll on a motor with more compression is going to be that much more worthwhile. Sure you might get N/A feeling power, but if that's all you care about, build a 2.3/2.4 or buy a v8.

Given that no one who's done this has said that it was really worth it, I don't see why everyone keeps trying to reinvent the wheel.




20 psi at 2500 rpm? What cams? Magic 100% VE head? Sea level? Negative pressure drop in your intercooler? Are you just throwing out your so-called experience as fact?

More compression? Do you know what compression he's running? No. If it's stock, it's 7.8:1, which would mean less than 8.8:1 that an Evo 8 comes with. Maybe he has 2g pistons at 8.5:1... Oh wait, that's still less than an Evo. So remind me again how this is on a motor with more compression?

Do you think Mitsubishi thought it wasn't worth it?

Tell us, why are you benchracing against this so hard?



Ryan Hertz

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blue642
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880556 posted 03/09/10 02:14 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting hertz:


Tell us, why are you benchracing against this so hard?




Those who can't have no faith in those who can. Go for it.

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GVR-4
Creative Name Huh?
77/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880586 posted 03/09/10 03:29 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sometimes it's about the challenge and sense of accomplishment that come with a project. Let's face it, owning one of these cars is not a logical choice... unless you like to work on it. I would venture that most of the members on the board just like to work on/tinker with stuff and probably have at least one other area where they have projects (woodworking, home remodeling, etc.). Personally I just like setting stuff up exactly like I want it, whether it's my car, my bicycle or my home.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Peter

Can't polish a turd.

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880634 posted 03/09/10 05:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You guys are funny.
I find an odd duality in those with some form of warning and those with a 'whatever your pocketbook' can afford mentality.
At least we're talking.

I am curious as to why no one has simply made a Evo 8-9 turbo manifold for the 1g-2g that places it in the correct position? Pull the exhaust side in a bit, maybe clock the center cartridge to get the oil return straight again. Sure it's a limited use part but I can build a manifold relatively cheaply.

We shall see I suppose. Just got the phone call from the machine shop and my stuff should be ready to pick up tomorrow.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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Street Surgeon
Professor Street Surgeon
501/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880637 posted 03/09/10 05:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
There are some that have run em on 4G61/3 powered colts/mirages. They're a neat swap because you can get the turbo's for dirt cheap with relatively low miles and usually in great shape. The downside is that if you don't use the stock stuff the manifold and O2 housing combo can kill ya pricewise.



Cory O.
'92 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 501/1000
Heavily modified, barely driven, some assembly required.

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Boostdtalon
Member +++


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880680 posted 03/09/10 07:17 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I proposed doing something similiar to this with my N/A Eclipse because it faces the same way as the Evo 4-9 4G63 and got flamed for it too. I say do it and it'll be interesting to see. Good luck!

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880808 posted 03/10/10 12:51 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
One consideration for all of this is availability. I already have the turbo since I replaced the stock one on my Evo with a Evo IX turbo. I got the 10.5 hotside from Hudspeth auto off ebay for 22 dollars. I will either pick up a Ebay SS manifold or use the DNP manifold I already have. I also already have a SS O2 Housing which I can modify if need be. Given that I already have the most expensive components, and the custom work will not cost me anything, I can see no reason not to do it. One good aspect of the swap will be the direction of the compressor outlet will change and I won't have to bring it over top of the manifold. It will just shoot off towards the drivers side of the car from the bottom.

Since I already have a turbo setup for the car, I am not forced to do this over the course of a day or two and can focus on the aesthetics a bit more which is of some importance to me. I've already contacted my machinist and welding contacts and they are on board for it. I believe that the engine parts at the machine shop will be in my possession tomorrow which gives me a few days before the weekend to get the car ready to go down to the shop.

If nothing else, I'd like to see exactly how difficult it is to do this. From my past experience building complete custom cars and fabrication, I just don't see the obstacles as very difficult to hurdle.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880825 posted 03/10/10 02:05 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Can you grind off the locating pins on the housings and clock the center section until it lines up with the factory lines?
I've seen one VR4 with a TD05HR before, it could be quite popular as these turbos go for stupid cheap prices!

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 880827 posted 03/10/10 02:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I assume I will have to reclock the cartridge. The pins used to just pull out but regardless I'll have to get the oil return at least within 15 degrees of vertical, hopefully pointed towards the block a bit. I will most likely machine and aluminum block to fit on the pan and one for the bottom of the turbo and run a SS -1 AN line instead of using a modified factory return line.

The water lines, not worried. One they are not very high pressure and two I know they can be replaced with hose and clamped on to flared cut factory lines. The oil feed will be a simple SS line from the factory outlet on the head.

Since I will have the motor mostly built before it goes back into the car, I am going to take some measurements as soon as the head is back on. If I can find a way to not flip the turbo and leave the O2 exit in roughly the same location, that might mean I need only a custom intake and some minor work to the DP. I am not opposed to relocating the PS pump if it is an issue either. There are plenty of places on the block that I could relocate the PS pump, namely where the Alternator used to be. I think dropping the pump would give the turbo compressor side enough clearance to bolt up. Then its just a custom DP and lines. That would be the most simple solution.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

Posts: 911 | From: San Antonio Tx | Member Since: 11/16/09 | IP: (99.52.72.193) | Report this post to a Moderator

prove_it
my racist jokes aren't actually funny
715/1000
1284/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 881051 posted 03/10/10 07:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Pics please! I hope it's still coming along well.



#1284/2K NB, Totaled
#715/1K KG, Rebuilding
02 Acura TL daily duty unit

12yr+ Vr4 owner.
Honda/Acura master tech.
Family Guy

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broxma
retard monkey strength
379/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 881082 posted 03/10/10 09:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
It just started actually. I got the parts to rebuild the fuel pump unit today. The head and pistons are back from the machine shop tomorrow. Next week I will be putting the car back together since it is my spring break. If you have seen my other build post, you know that this one will be inundated with photos as well.

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

Posts: 911 | From: San Antonio Tx | Member Since: 11/16/09 | IP: (99.52.72.193) | Report this post to a Moderator


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