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324vr4 vs. carwash

324vr4

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
I went to the car wash the other day on the GVR4 and washed the engine bay to rid it from an old oil leak that caused everything to be coated...anyways, I drove it for about 20 min prior to washing it and the temps outside were fair at 55 and a beautiful sunny day. I parked inside the wash bay and opened the hood and started rinsing off the motor without pressing the nozzle for just it's low pressure spray...I cleaned the VC area and head and the firewall and k-member without thinking the water might infiltrate the motor...I let it dry for about 10 min and hopped back in and went for another quick drive about 5 miles to "dry" the outside of the car and whatnot...as I started to slow and turn off I noticed an abundance of white smoke billowing out of the tail pipe.. At first I thought it was only dust but noticed it more once driving home. So I assumed I sucked in some water in the turbo inlet and would let it dry before I drove much more...

Yesterday I went back to see if everything was okay (car washed a week before) and started it up and after about a minute I saw more white smoke and held my hand at the exhaust exit and saw water all over my hand...so my buddy and I took off the turbo intake pipe and saw that it was fine and spun freely and was clean so I knew that wasn't the problem. We took the VC off and instantly noticed water on the head all over...looking like it was infiltrated from the crusty VC gasket. We drained a little oil out of the oil pan and also notice a little bit of water in that too and will be draining that ASAP so the bearings retain their strength and cleanliness but my question is how that hell did the water infiltrate the combustion chamber?! On a side note we had a couple rubber blockers cracked off the IM and that may have been another spot where the water got in but besides draining the contaminated oil and putting new thicker stuff in to coat everything again, is there anything else besides a leak down test we can try to help determine where this water is coming from?! The radiator is still full and so that's why I'm HOPING its not the head gasket but this is on a new motor with less than 600 miles on it. We have a MLS head gasket and will look to make sure its all torqued within spec but this would be our 2nd time re-torquing and checking the ARP head bolts.

If anyone has any suggestions please let me know what my options are and what to look for...thanks in advance!

-Lieb-
 

turbowop

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Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
Weird. I have never, ever, had water enter the engine internals via a pressure washer. If it entered through the valve cover gasket, it would have to be so shitty that oil would be leaking out really bad beforehand.
 

mikus

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Jan 11, 2007
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Location
Aurora IL
maybe something cracked when you put cold water on hot engine parts? Is it water, or coolant?
 

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
That's my guess but I'm hoping not...the pressure washer wasn't turned on high...just your basic DIY car wash and never pressed down on the nozzle for full pressure...just used it to rinse off the engine bay...however, the VC did have a slight oil seep on the head prior to washing; that's why I sprayed the head down to clean the oil off...not thinking it could penetrate the VC and head. I'm hoping nothing cracked but the motor wasn't even at operating temps so I assumed that to be too extreme. I thought maybe the turbo housing was cracked from the wash but the turbo isn't leaking and is clean and spins freely still so not sure...but I've never heard of a car wash being the possible cause of a blown head gasket...just trying to think before the "surgery" occurs.
 

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
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1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
and its water coming out of the exhaust pipe...the radiator is still as full as it was originally prior to this dilemma.
 

turbowop

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Yakima, WA
You sure you're not just seeing condensation coming out the exhaust? Are you talking about a few dropplets, or like a sh*t-ton of water?
 

mikus

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Aurora IL
ok my best guess is - water is pooled in your intercooler somehow.

Cracked ANYTHING would cause bigger problems (oil/air/coolant leaking, etc) if it was big enough for water to get in the head. Same goes for your VC gasket, if no pressure water got in, oil would be coming out rapidly. Plus how does it get in the combustion chamber in those cases.

Water in your intercooler would allow you to run, would come out slow enough where it's still coming out, and could get into the crank and head slowly @ combustion chamber via rings/valve seals (is a fresh engine ya?) plus maybe steam from crank coming up the PCV/passages & condensing in head.

something's likely wrong with this theory but it's the best i got after puzzling it over lunch. it's an easy check. good luck!
 

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
This is more than just condensation...the head has a descent amount of water in it...could it be from the car wash or would it be more a head gasket or cracked turbo housing?! a leak down test will be done this week but still trying to figure it out before more parts are ordered...it spits water on your hand out the exhaust but its only water and not coolant from what I can see...hoping we can just remove the water from under the VC by air-drying and replacing the oil and than check everything...
 

Maybe water pooled in the spark plug wells and old plug gaskets on the VC allowed the water in.
 

Armitage

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Oct 16, 2003
Messages
715
Location
Herndon, VA
Was your dipstick popped out at the time you washed the car? I bet a lot of water could go down the tube if it wasn't sealed.
 

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
The dipstick was 100% sealed and closed...however the advice from you Qship, I wonder if that occurred?! There was a descent amount of water pooled in the recessed part of the VC and perhaps water did get in there...either way, this weekend we're finally doing a leak-down test and that should allow us a better guess as to what the problem is...Damn we're getting anxious to drive this thing and it always seems to be this time of year that something fouls our progress...thanks for the advice and will certainly have answers after this weekend...
 

mitsuturbo

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Jun 2, 2008
Messages
3,544
Location
Near Seattle, Washington
This is by far the most odd issue i've read about in a very long time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif Water in the oil, water in the combustion process, water in the exhaust.. yet the cooling system water level is remaining constant? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I am eagerly awaiting the explanation on this one.
 

fivestardsm

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Sep 8, 2006
Messages
1,699
Location
Middle, Michigan
I have had the same problem with a couple of mine. If the valve cover is cracked like 90% of them are, then that would be the source of the water. Also some through the plug holes is very likley. And then there is the possibility that you got your air cleaner wet which will allow the water to be sucked right into the chambers and distributed to the oil. I have seen this many times with my old mud runners. Every time I ever got one wet, the first thing I did was changed the oil and then usually I would change it again after 1000 miles or so.
If one of your vacumes is cracked, it could have sucked water in aswell. As for the intercooler, if water was accumulated into it somehow, it would have been rather quickly dispursed through the exhaust. If this was the case, you would notice that your plugs would have had a white chalk on them, This is the same as if you had a bad head gasket. Have you checked the plugs? If not, make sure that ther eis no water in the holes before you pull the plugs out.

Did you leave the car running while you were spraying it off?

Also, you mentioned that you were washing it because there was an oil leak at the head. Was it on the pass side just below the thermostat housing? If so, then you will more than likely need to replace you head gasket anyway. They are very well known for blowing out there. If this is the case, then it seems likely that you might also have a small leak in you head gasket between the coolant passage and the combuston chamber, or the oil passage. I have a Talon that has this type of leak. Granted it still runs and I even drove it like that for a while because I didnt really care if it blew up or not because the motor had over 250K on it and I was just waiting for it to completly pop. It hasn't yet BTW.

Another place that will allow water and moisture in, is the cam angle sensor. If the o-ring is dryed, you will notice oilly build up around it. You might want to check that also.

Just to let you know:
When a seal surface is hot, it will allow water / moisture to be sucked by the seal. They are designed to keep fluid in more than they are to keep them out. For example, if you have an automatic vehicle and you are driving just day to day rutines, and you drive through a large water puddle, if the water gets into the bell housing because of either an inproper sealed flywheel inspection plate, or a non exsistant one, the water will be sucked into the seal imediatly. I can pove this with a PILE of old turbo 350's that I used to run in my 79 chevy.

Hope this helps in some way or another..
 
Last edited:

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
Messages
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Location
Bozeman, Montana
Wow, I appreciate the feedback...The vehicle was not running upon spraying the motor and engine bay down...the water used to spray it down was warm; also the motor was only on for about 5 min prior to getting to the car wash...not running at operating temperatures...So I'm hoping nothing is cracked. As far as cracked vacuum lines...yeah I think this may have been a better reason...I found a couple on the IM that needed replacement and sure as sh*t once they were replaced the motor even sounded and ran better to the ear. I really don't think the induction of water thru the intake pipe/side of the turbo would have done this but who knows...as far as the oil seep on the head between the head and VC it was located on the DS right near the upper timing belt cover...but the seep was nothing more than a seep; just a little buildup of old oil or dirt collected there so I assumed spraying it off wouldn't do anything more than church it up...but again, who knows...

We have drained the oil and dumped some more on top of the cams and bearing to try and relinquishing the effects of water/oxidation damage. This weekend we will check everything again and then try to start it up and see what happens...if we continue to see white smoke out the tail pipe a leak down test will be completed and documented and at that point I would assume it to be a faulty head gasket...My fingers are crossed to the fact that after it sitting in a "dry" environment with the VC cover loosened enough to allow moisture to escape that it will indeed be "fixed." But more will be known once the weekend creeps closer.

I will check the VC to make sure its not cracked but this is a replacement VC due to the original one being cracked...If anything, I believe replacing the VC gasket will help in holding in the good and keeping out the bad...Will keep everyone posted and thank you again for your advice and suggestions!

-Lieb-
 

324vr4

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Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
Went and worked on the car last night. We did a leak down test and our head-gasket is definitely not the issue with why water is exiting the exhaust upon start-up/idling...water was getting in thru the spark plug reservoirs and the plugs were not as tight as they needed to be so we re-tightened everything and started it up with our fingers crossed. No smoke at start up but after 2 min of running it started pouring out the rear end. Checked the radiator levels and noticed it had dropped about 1/4" from the top of the core so we're going to do two things. Replace the oil return hose from the turbo to the oil pan (its beginning to pinch and not sure if the size used is enough to allow proper flow), and I believe the turbo has a cracked housing thus the reason for water exiting the exhaust. So that's what was found out...not too happy but not as mad as I thought knowing the head-gasket is intact for the time being.

I didn't think to look to see if the plugs were tight or not but certainly there was some water on the threads and the fact that water entered the combustion chamber from there makes sense now after the spirited driving prior to this problem; along with a car wash. If anyone has a used "good" condition 16g or even a 14b available we are now in pursuit of one. Thanks for the help...
 

fivestardsm

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Sep 8, 2006
Messages
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Location
Middle, Michigan
How long have you let it run for since working on it last? You will have serious residual moisture built up in the engine and the exhaust. You need to take it out for a good 50-100 mile drive and work out the moisture. If you didnt change your oil, then do that also. You really could be fine. Just watch your temp and your oil pressure closely for a while.
 

324vr4

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Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,240
Location
Bozeman, Montana
The last time we worked on it was about two-three weeks ago...before the lapse of time between working on it we changed the oil and put more thick (Delvac 15w40) over the cams and other bearings/journals in the head and threw the VC back on without tightening it...I understand that the water's residuals are assumed to be left in the exhaust and engine but the fact that our coolant levels dropped over the ten min idle/startup makes me think that there's more to what we thought would fix it. The first thing we're doing is replacing and upgrading the oil return line b/c when hot, it pinches and subsequently doesn't allow enough flow so perhaps the oil is being forced back thru the housing seals...in any case, we're going to replace the oil return line and see if anything better comes of it...Might have to go on a little drive to see if anything gets better...I appreciate your advice and man oh man I hope its better than needing a new turbo...we'll know more after the "upgraded" oil return line. Thanks again...
 

fivestardsm

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Sep 8, 2006
Messages
1,699
Location
Middle, Michigan
Thats good. I hope you get it all wrapped up.
 
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