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Tuning a Keydiver, MAFT, SAFC setup... Yep, 20 yr old setup...


PJGross
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246812 posted 08/04/19 03:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So, My 11 years or so of jackstand bawling are over, but I'm right at where I left off.

I did a build of: refreshed head, JE 9:1s, T3/T04E, 272 cams, BS delete, FPR, FMIC.

When braking in the engine, I used stock tune, 450 injectors, hacked 1G MAF that was like that before the mods.

Engine brake in went great. Up to 12psi or so of boost no issues. Had a pocket logger to monitor.

When setting to 15psi was getting MAS over-run and had Denso 660s sitting already.

I ordered a Keydiver chip set up for the 660s and higher rev limit, etc. but also added a GM LT1 3" MAF and MAFT.

After this, I was having issues with roll on throttle knock, basically having to baby it into boost, but it would pull through 8k pretty well.

-------------------------------
Forward to now.
I just finished a once over and getting it on the road.

1) My Palm M100 memory is gone so I need to reload pocketlogger. Any ideas where to get the program again? I don't know if I saved any license info, etc.
2) MAFT setup / base settings. I remember seeing a good guide for this, does anyone have it bookmarked?
3) SAFC: I will leave it hooked up but not sure it will help with anything.

Currently I need a checklist of idle/initial setup. Timing grounded is 5 BTDC, Keydiver sets idle at 900rpm.
I will look at setting the ISC, BISS, throttle plate and what numbers to use. I know I had a guide.
EGR is plated off, but FIAV is still there.

When warm, clutch in to a stop stalls everytime if I don't heel/toe the throttle. Just sitting most times it idles fine, but flucutates between 13" vaccuum and 6 and revs search a tad.

First and second gear off boost drives ok enough, but it breaks up bad enterning + PSI. I just put in new BPR7ES plugs gapped to about .024.

The good news is with the fuel pump relay addition and clean fuel tank the walbro is quiet!

-PJ



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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246814 posted 08/05/19 09:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ok, I searched the forum for datalogging options.
- Have my pocketlogger cable, so I have a cable with a DB9 connector.

- Not thrilled with using a Palm to log, so throw that out.

- Looking for best software that I could use with the cable I have.

TunerPro: This I think is a good option, though I'm not sure if it will work with the cable I have currently? I also have to see if any of our laptops have a DB9 connection.

Is it hard to setup?

Any other options to get a basic logger going with my old Pocketlogger cable interface?

Thanks,
PJ



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vr4hotness
New Daddy
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246816 posted 08/05/19 09:58 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Is there a reason you don't want to get ecmlink?

Might be way easier then the keydriver.



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Jesus_Negros
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246819 posted 08/05/19 10:37 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
OMG I remember having a keydiver in my first GVR4 back in 2008



Quoting coyotes:

Just because you WANT your rare turd to be valuable doesn't mean it's gonna be.




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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246821 posted 08/05/19 11:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The keydiver chip doesn't enable logging. You can log a car with a factory ECU. It just compensates for hardware and software changes. It's like a non adjustable ECMlink.

But seriously just pony up and get ECMlink. It's the single best mod to a Mitsu.

I tell everyone who asks me to use this as an initial guide.

Clicky



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!


Edited by CutlassJim (08/05/19 11:41 AM)

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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246823 posted 08/05/19 02:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Reason for no DSMLink: Budget is zero for the car. I am getting it running to show new owner and sell, basically.
I've already spent way more than I had hoped but want to do the right thing.

In 2008 it ran reasonably well on current setup. I have to find what changed/died to get it reasonably close again. Hence I need to log it.

The keydiver chip is set for my setup, Jeff knew I was going to use MAFT and SAFC. He said to start with the MAFT zeroed out.

I need a logger that will work with my pocketlogger cord, and was asking which free program would work since I don't have pockelogger anymore.

-PJ



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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246824 posted 08/05/19 03:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I see the confusion.

Everything I have for this setup I had in 2008 or prior. I said "I ordered a Keydiver chip" but that was very past tense. Sorry for the confusion. I have a really old setup with hardly any miles.

If there is an inexpensive way to incorporate a wideband/narrow band sim in the stock O2 sensor location, I would be interested in that. It would help with tuning immensely.
-PJ



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turbowop
Hard Snarker
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246825 posted 08/05/19 04:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The Keydiver chip should be setup to compensate for whatever mods you have. If that's changed, you need a different chip burned. I'm also not sure why you'd use both a MAFT and a SAFC. An SAFC is great in conjunction with a Keydiver chip to fine tune everything, but adding that in to the mix with a MAFT just makes it more complicated and confusing. Especially since you can fine tune the MAFT in a similar way. Waaaaay too many piggybacks at play here, IMO. Zeroed out the SAFC shouldn't create any problems, but I'd be pulling it from the mix and reconnecting the O2 signal wire back together again.



-Mark

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246829 posted 08/06/19 06:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting PJGross:

I see the confusion.

Everything I have for this setup I had in 2008 or prior. I said "I ordered a Keydiver chip" but that was very past tense. Sorry for the confusion. I have a really old setup with hardly any miles.

If there is an inexpensive way to incorporate a wideband/narrow band sim in the stock O2 sensor location, I would be interested in that. It would help with tuning immensely.
-PJ




Sorry I didn't realize the situation and am pretty ignorant to your setup.

One question though if you are selling the car why not get it running "good enough" and let the next owner fine tune it the way he wants?

Like WOP said you really only need the MAFT with it ZERO'd out just to translate the GM hot wire MAF and if the keydiver chip is anything like the one I had it already has updated timing and fueling tables to not be so rich/compensate for injectors. I'd give the SAFC the boot also. If you do hook it up I'd leave that zero'd out as well.

Most wideband setups that I've seen have a narrowband output that you can run to the ECM for it to do it's job. So place your wideband in the factory location and wire the controller to the ECU to simulate.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

Posts: 1569 | From: Manchester, NH | Member Since: 07/17/06 | IP: (173.14.186.153) | Report this post to a Moderator

PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246835 posted 08/07/19 06:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
When I went down the hole of mods, I had a 1G MAS and in speaking with Jeff I mentioned I had access to LT1 MAFs so he suggested I could run one of those with his chip and an MAFT. Though I never did it, you could use as blow through so I was thinking it gave a bit of flexibility. He suggested zeroing out the MAFT and then fine tuning with SAFC that I already had installed. This was between 2002 and 2008 so at the time and people had done similar, I think.

I know there is better out there now, of course. And why tune it for me vs someone else? Well, if I wanted to maximize money I would part out the car. I just want to get it to running decently prior to selling and not put a whole bunch more into it. I guess a pride thing after sitting all these years.

I think I can download MMCD and use that to log for now. Just to make sure all baseline stuff is intact and functional. It had run better in 2008 when I last logged. I had some low rpm knock registering and Jeff burned another chip to ignore that phantom knock. I never installed that chip though, I was wondering if it was real knock.

First is, based on how well the fuel pump rewire went, I think I need to run a ground from the neg batt terminal in trunk all the way up to the engine bay. Right now it is using body as ground and I don't think it is efficient enough.

Thanks for all the input. I'm slowly going to work through the bugs.
-PJ



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slugsgomoo
god hates stupid people
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246838 posted 08/07/19 11:39 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
having had 9:1 pistons with a keydiver, you're going to have a bad time. In order to get mine to run decently, I had to run 1* of mechanical timing, because the timing map in the chip was still EXTREMELY aggressive for that level of compression (I was seeing 19* of total advance at peak torque with 5* base, and on 92 that just doesn't work).

TBH you can make it work, but it's definitely not going to work nearly as well as ECMLink in my experience.



-andrew
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2015 Triumph Tiger 800 XCx
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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246842 posted 08/07/19 01:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting PJGross:

I think I need to run a ground from the neg batt terminal in trunk all the way up to the engine bay. Right now it is using body as ground and I don't think it is efficient enough.






I wouldn't bother. I use the upper shock mount for my ground point. As long as the paint is sanded down to bare metal you should be fine. The entire unibody is made of steel and is a conductor. Very little resistance from trunk to engine bay. Just make sure your grounds all look clean.



-Mark

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246844 posted 08/08/19 06:21 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'd have to disagree with that statement.

Yes the unibody is made from steel but it's not one big chunk of steel. It's many pieces all coated and spot welded together with seam sealer in between them. It's actually a very convoluted and difficult path for current to flow. I usually give a unibody the equivalent of a 12-15 ft run of 8AWG wire in current capacity. So fine for a small amplifier or fuel pump rewire but not nearly sufficient for large electrical loads.

A few friends and I first figured this out back in our car stereo days. When installing a larger amplifier in the trunk of a car, think anything that required 4AWG+ wire, we would either run another dedicated 4AWG wire to the front of the car or do something like a 4AWG to a chassis grounding point (shock tower) and then an 8AWG supplementary wire to the front with %100 of the time it having measurable positive results.

My company recently built an automated test station for starters for Remy (now Borg Warner) and during the load test we would routinely see 6-700 amps of current draw on a heavily loaded starter. That's approx 7800 watts of power. More than I would want to flow through the equivalent of 8AWG of wire and expect the end user of said pixies to be happy with it's life.

If you have the material around run even outside the car a matching gauge ground wire from the battery to one of the starter bolts on the trans and I bet it will sound WAY happier starting the car.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246847 posted 08/08/19 04:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
When I originally put the battery in the trunk almost two decades ago, I measured the resistance with a multimeter from the trunk to the engine bay through the unibody. I didn't see an amount substantial enough to justify me adding more big wire to the car.

It's not like the coating and seam sealer is between the welds. And there are a lot of welds. It's over the top of the welds and steel. I get what you're saying but in this case I don't see the point. Dude is selling the car anyway. And my car has been this way for a loooooooong time with zero issues rearing their heads from bad grounding. YMMV



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246849 posted 08/08/19 08:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well, the fuel pump relay made a night and day difference. I have some wire, will try out. Everything in the car is dim with or without car on so it canít hurt.

I downloaded MMCD, got a serial to usb connector, configured it correctly, and now have MMCD on my palm!

However, connected to the car with the pocketlogger the MMCD software doesnít connect with the car. I will have to read the manual / directions, but one step closer.....



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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246856 posted 08/09/19 04:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
MMCD not connecting. Palm M100 resets itself every 5 minutes. WTF.

Figured I would join at least this millenium and go with Tuner Pro on a laptop.
First Serial to USB adapter was advertised horribly and not compatible with Windows 10.
New adapter on the way. Should be logging with Tuner Pro shortly.

-PJ



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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246859 posted 08/10/19 08:56 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting turbowop:

When I originally put the battery in the trunk almost two decades ago, I measured the resistance with a multimeter from the trunk to the engine bay through the unibody. I didn't see an amount substantial enough to justify me adding more big wire to the car.

It's not like the coating and seam sealer is between the welds. And there are a lot of welds. It's over the top of the welds and steel. I get what you're saying but in this case I don't see the point. Dude is selling the car anyway. And my car has been this way for a loooooooong time with zero issues rearing their heads from bad grounding. YMMV




It's not resistance that's the issue. If you put a multimeter across a 22AWG wire you'd get super lower resistance right? Would you use 22AWG wire to rewire your fuel pump? Or as a battery cable? It's current capacity that's the problem.

Plus even a super low resistance at a high amperage can have massive power loss. Upwards of 300 watts in this application alone. You ever look up a 0.1 ohm 250-300 watt resistor? They are massive to deal with the heat generated from the power lost through them.
Same reason when they send energy long distance they up it to very high voltage so you can get the same power with less current flow (P=VI) and then step it back down at stations and even at the pole outside your house. If they went low voltage high current the wire would have to be incredibly large to not suffer incredible losses.

It's the equivalent argument of saying that your car makes 500 HP through a 2.5 inch exhaust. I agree that maybe it does. But I stand by the statement that it would make more power with a 3 or 3.5" exhaust. But whatever works for the individual.

My post is just to get the information out there. I feel like %99 of the automotive community think that a unibody has unlimited current carrying capacity and it's just not the case.

I go though a similar discussion when I see people run a 2AWG gauge power wire to an amplifier or other device and then a 10AWG ground. Just trying to make people informed. What you do with that info is up to you.

On Topic I've used Tunerpro on my BMW. If you have any questions I'll try to lend you a hand.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!


Edited by CutlassJim (08/10/19 08:57 AM)

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turbowop
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246862 posted 08/10/19 12:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
But I don't think we're talking about anything high current here are we? He's not installing some huge stereo system before selling the car. Just trying to get it to run right. And I don't think the unibody being used as the ground conductor is the issue in this case. I agree with everything you've said. I just don't see the point to adding a large ground wire to his setup. I honestly just don't think it'll do anything.

That said, I appreciate the info. It's good stuff for sure.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051


Edited by turbowop (08/10/19 12:44 PM)

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246871 posted 08/11/19 07:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
FWIW, on my relocated trunk battery, I also use a short ground wire which terminates in the trunk area. I've yet to have any issues with the car charging.

As a precautionary measure, I've also added an additional grounding system from multiple points on the engine to the engine bay/unibody to supplement what's already there from the factory. Clean grounds, especially the main grounds for the ECU, I believe are the key.



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PJGross
both buccal and lingual
490/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246889 posted 08/14/19 12:49 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^^^
All good inputs. On the part of "getting going to sell the car"... that is the narrative, but once it becomes "jump in and drive/go autocrossing/etc." that might change... whatever my beautiful wife will put up with is sort of the way it will go.

I figure it's not a big deal to send a ground wire back up to the engine bay. I currently have a nice clean ground to one of the bumper support bolts, but I might as well send a ground back up front as well. Definitely won't hurt.

As far as everything being dim, I don't know. Maybe its just an old car and I don't remember, but rear running lights are pretty tough to see in the daylight.

Alternator has <500 miles on it and I did fab a SS heatshield for it to deflect the brunt of downpipe heat, so it should be ok.

----------------------------
For getting my tune figured out, I believe my main issue is base lining the MAFT for my car, then just dialing in what I have with the SAFC and logging.

I have the MAFT 1G setup procedure printed (just need to make sure which MAFT version I have)
After that, I have the SAFC 1G setup instructions which shouldn't need much tweaking.

Along the way I will make sure that all my base systems are working the way they are supposed to.
---------------------------

Biggest issue is connecting to laptop via USB instead of the old school serial port.
USB to Serial port:
I think I have learned that a PC2303 chipset in this conveter is not appropriate. TunerPro will not recognize the converter cable. I have ordered a converter with the FTDI chipset in it to see if TunerPro will recognize it.

Once I am able to start logging I can begin to troubleshoot what's going on.

Again, thanks for all the input.

-PJ



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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246890 posted 08/14/19 01:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting GSTwithPSI:

FWIW, on my relocated trunk battery, I also use a short ground wire which terminates in the trunk area. I've yet to have any issues with the car charging.





I'm not talking about charging the car AT ALL. That's a low current operation. Or even during running conditions where the alternator is doing all the work. I'm talking about high current electrical loads trying to pull through the chassis. The highest load you'll see in an automotive application will be a huge amplifier, which I fully understand is a small percentage of people it's just where I learned this, and the starter trying to start the car. If your battery is in the trunk and the starter is in the front of the car and you are only grounding it via the chassis you are restricting current flow to the starter and not letting it reach its potential power output. Period.

Again. It might start the car %99.9 percent of the time. But you are still restricting it. Like the exhaust situation.

Batteries are real sensitive to heat too. I have a little more of a challenge during a NH winter with 15-40w oil than you probably do in Socal or MD before that.



ALL DSM's are advanced and ALL Evo's retarded
I love my crazy mother!!!

Posts: 1569 | From: Manchester, NH | Member Since: 07/17/06 | IP: (173.14.186.153) | Report this post to a Moderator

GSTwithPSI
A hole
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246901 posted 08/16/19 01:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just guessing, since I've never actually measured it, but I be willing to bet the difference in current draw at the starter through the chassis verses a dedicated ground wire is negligible at best. We're talking about a giant chunk of metal here, not a 14 gauge wire. I will say, a dedicated ground wire is cheap insurance, though. It certainly can't hurt to have the extra ground.

If you're running some crazy audio equipment you should absolutely take measures to ensure there's a more robust circuit to facilitate current flow. But, if you're like me, the battery being in the trunk makes wiring the colocated amp that much easier.

I'd fire up 1837 a few times a month in the MD winters when temps were subzero. Even on E85 the car would start without issue. If the electrical system in the car (to include your chassis grounds) are maintained, I doubt you'll ever notice the difference one way or the other.



820/1000
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1813/2000-SOLD

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1246907 posted 08/16/19 12:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Yeah, when I had 503 and used it as my ski rig I never had issues starting that car weekly in below zero temps with thick viscosity oil. Battery was in the trunk and grounded at the upper shock mount.

Is it cheap insurance? I guess. Is it "better"? Depends on your needs. But personally I don't like having an extra ~20ft of large gauge wire running through my car if I don't need it. I especially wouldn't wanna do that labor on a car I was planning to sell if it wasn't going to make a difference either.



-Mark

A face only a grocery shopper could love.
1051

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