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Methanol kit recommendation

EfiniX

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The Internet is lousy with opinions on who makes the best kit, but I'm curious about the experiences of actual VR4 owners. I've got LinkV3 and activating the alcohol injection from link makes sense to me. It would also seem that progressive controllers aren't worth the expense with Link activation in lieu of a hobbs switch.

Thoughts? Recommendations?
 

Mdlimy

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I'm a fan of progressive controllers. They allow you to use a slightly larger nozzle and vary the amount injected depending on boost levels. This allows you to start spraying early and take advantage of advanced timing early in the rpm range and help with spool up.
I was never super happy with a single on/off hobbs switch, yes it worked but it was a pain to tune if I let it come in any earlier than 10psi of boost. Once I started controlling the pump with via pwm I could inject the correct amount coming into boost(started spraying at 115kpa/2psi) and added a bunch of timing, helped a ton with spool up and light throttle driving.

Does link offer a general purpose PWM output? If so, you can just install a solid state relay and pwm control a standard wmi pump with the ecu like I did with the aem ecu.
 

NateCrisman

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Im going to be putting a meth hit on #418 this week (after last week's pump 93 tune...it needs the octane!). Planning to run straight methanol in mine, and a significant amount..enough to hopefully top 30psi boost and run a pretty strong thing curve 6-8* above my pump 93 map. I ended up snagging a used Devil's Own kit for $200 shipped that has the 300psi pump, M10 & M18 nozzles, and progressive controller (low boost one though)

Im going to concur with the above poster RE: progressive vs on/off. Im thinking that the way your going to trim back the pump fuel in the DA minoctane secondary map is kinda "counter intuitive" in that your going to command an AFR leaner than actual so it jives with the meth spraying. I would think that a simple on/off is going to be a PITA where if you spray it too early, it's bog city. if you spray it too late, the knock sensor will be pulling timing before the meth comes in. And getting that activation point just right isn't possible because it's based on spool...which will happen at different rates in different gears. So a hobbs switch type setting that's perfect for a 1-2-3 pull from a stop will be way too late for a 3rd gear roll pull. I can just invision chasing my tail trying to run 1000cc of meth with simple on/off via load factor with one square of 4 cells that just can't be tuned right.

On a side note...I have an AEM multi-input progressive controller kicking around from a prior project, that can base it's activation off fuel Injector Duty Cycle...I kinda wonder if that might be the most ideal way of setting this up on a DSM/GVR4 that would be "smooth" to tune via secondary DS maps. In this setup you tie methanol flow to injector flow, which might make the DSMlink side of the tuning more "flat"...where your pulling out an even amount of AFR on the secondary DA map with rpm.

If you run a on/off activation: your DA correction map is going to be DRASTIC lean at the activation point and then taper off with engine rpm. The trick will be that first column!


As far as "best kit"....it's all the same stuff for the most part, and nothing is really all that special to make one kit a slam dunk over another brand. The progressive controllers are likely the main differentiation point. The mechanicals: pumps are pretty much universally shurflo 300psi pumps these days. All the lines/fittings are 1/4 push-lock generic stuff. Tanks...well..a stock windshield washer tank works just as well as a fancy $150 "hide the pump inside it" custom molded one. Nozzles are fairly generic.

AEM does make a pretty nice looking nozzle holder/check valve/hose fitting that's all one piece and very sanitary looking, but only has 3 size nozzles to work with (250/500/1000cc). I kinda like their progressive controller too as it comes with a full length wiring harness and all the fuse/relay is internal to be box...lends to a clean install on the wiring end.

AEM also offer a Meth flow gauge that has failsafe alarm and analog outputs..it's worth looking at, and I think we can log it in link and could use the alarm to trigger the secondary maps. The gauge only reads to 1000cc/min but Im reading the sensor might go higher via the analog output. It's like $260 gauge/sensor...but it might be the better way to go when it comes to safety and secondary map logic (at least for me, where this meth kit is going to be a fairly heavy part of my overall fuel/tune...not just a little spritz)


CoolingMist seems to have the nicest custom designed tanks, if your looking to drop money in that area. They have a trunk mount setup that hides the pump and wiring under the tank in a recess. Very clean looking install. Their electronics seem kinda "home brew" with little details online.

Devil's Own is kinda "generic" and basic...but probably the best value..they are a little cheaper new, similar with Snow Performance. These seem to be no frills and all function.

ProMeth.com Used to be A.I.S...they had nice kits too, but seem to be more intent on GM vette/camaro customers, and their new site doesn't have info/pics for the import/generic kits. But overall good quality.


Keep posting up!

TurboWOP is a meth/pumpgas guy...he's got some posts that can be searched up on how he ran his failsafe wiring/logic. I'd love to see a DSMlink log from his car as he runs the meth "on/off" and tunes around it in DA secondary maps. Would love to see how abrupt it looks and how the actual AFR's look on the log on spool.

food for thought:
vortech_volute_methanol_injection_3_1024x1024.jpg
 
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NateCrisman

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$240 new at Amazon

AEM meth flow gauge analog output:
4.50V = 1000cc/min = 15.85g/hr
4.65V = 1250cc/min = 19.81g/hr
4.85V = 2000cc/min = 31.70g/hr

looks like this gauge would make a pretty damn sweet external input to datalog within link via EGR temp sensor input wire. Anyone know if you can configure the logging software to display CC units of meth flow so it looks nice on the log?

I think Im going to snatch up one of these gauges, and wire the alarm low side to trigger the secondary maps via the throttle stop switch input (these will be "safe pump gas only" low timing and 10.5AFR maps). Also run that negative alarm trigger to a relay that will interrupt power to the boost control noid (I run DSMlink boost control)..so it will fall back to wastage spring pressure on alarm activate.

 
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EfiniX

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@Nate

Great post! Thanks!
 

NateCrisman

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Funny, you posted about meth kits right in the time that my brain is going full steam plotting and planning out my own Meth system....so I kinda unloaded. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

Last night I was trying to decide, at a fundamental level.....is the "failsafe" better off in which way:

A: Use the AEM gauge: Failsafe is based on fluid FLOW sensor right before nozzle. You tune your MaxOct DA maps so that the default "all the time" tune is FOR METH, and when the AEM gauge determines low/high flow alarm, it triggers DSMlink to go to secondary MinOct DA and cuts power to the boost control noid.

B: Use 1051's method of 60psi hobbs switch at the nozzle sensing meth pressure. which triggers a relay that grounds out an input wire for DSMlink to shift to secondary MinOct DA maps and triggers his 2 stage boost controller to HI setting.

Fundementally...A is a "reactionary" system to a failure while B is proactive to failure. Im going through all the possible scenarios of failure and trying to make a judgement on which one is better.

A covers all the possible failure modes..electric fail, pump fail, fluid leak, nozzle plugged, empty tank.
B covers all failure modes other than nozzle plugged, but it might not catch some fluid leaks unless its an open hose....the 300psi pump might be able to still make 40+psi even at "no nozzle" flow rate.

A seems easier to tune, because It's not relying on the meth kit to "come online" prior to switching the tune. The B setup needs to spool up to "basic boost level"...meth kit comes on...senses pressure...switches map & boost set ....now spool up to the meth tune. I'd like to see TurboWOP's log/map to see how his works out in reality. I can envision B setup giving away a smidgen of power and track ET by the whole "high power" system having to wait for pump pressure to come on.

A maybe wouldn't save your motor quick enough since it's a reactionary system if your out doing pulls and the meth kit just never comes on...like blown fuse/dead pump kind of failure. you go for a drive....first time WOT for the day....Boost goes to 30, your AFR is now set to like 13:0, and your running 15* of timing at full spool 4000psi. Does the alarm kick in early enough that cutting boost control power keeps the turbo from spiking to 30 cause there is a delay there? is the damage done already on that "first knock". Compared to B, which if the meth kit never comes up to pressure, the motor never see's the leaner AFR/higher Timing maps, and the boost controller never goes to high boost.

On another note: day the pump shits the bed 500ft into a drag pass....I don't think either system is going to save the motor.
 
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OldHairyBastard

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Whatever you do don't use any stupid kit as shown below. Only spray a little before the throttle body or in the intake manifold. If you spray before those area's you can retain fluid and it will build up in the system overtime. Unless you want to take your pipes and inter-cooler off all of the time to empty out moisture buildup.

food for thought:
vortech_volute_methanol_injection_3_1024x1024.jpg


 

NateCrisman

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Quoting OldHairyBastard:
Whatever you do don't use any stupid kit as shown below. Only spray a little before the throttle body or in the intake manifold. If you spray before those area's you can retain fluid and it will build up in the system overtime. Unless you want to take your pipes and inter-cooler off all of the time to empty out moisture buildup.



Only spray a little? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif No Im going to spray a sh*t load of straight meth! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif


If your spraying 100% methanol and the engine is running....no fluid can build up over time...methanol just evaporates on it's own. Add in 350*F temps and 55b/min of airflow and there is absolutely no possible way even a gigantic amount of methanol sprayed into a turbo discharge is going to do anything other than flash vaporize and be carried right into the engine.

My overall plan is to put the 1000cc injector in the throttle body to start, then see about possibly putting a 500cc on the inlet pipe of the turbo (which should help with adiabatic efficiency when the turbo is maxed out at 35-40psi). If I still need the octane and fuel flow...maybe adding another big injector in the throttle body or possibly at the top of the intake manifold plenum?

I agree that goofy image I posted is a little crazy, but that's what non-intercooler supercharger guys do on V8's and it works. They may put something crazy like 3000cc of fuel through the blower in that way just past the compressor so it doesn't erode it...and with no intercooler and stupid high temps...it can vaporize a few thousand CC of fuel there.
 
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OldHairyBastard

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The condensation from the compressed air mixing with the meth will cause ice to form on the piping and the inter-cooler and leaves buildup. The Pro-charger guys only have a short pipe running to there intake and take their cars apart all the time so no way a buildup would happen. The little referred to the distance from the TB. Just looking out for you. GN guys did a setup that sprayed right after the turbo in the early 90's and that's how we know not to place the nozzles there. Oh and not to mention the science behind water and Methanol being attracted to each other. They find each other irresistible.
Methanol molecules are attracted to water by the intermolecular force called hydrogen bonding. Methanol is CH3OH. The OH (hydroxyl) side carries a negative charge. Water is H2O but you can think of it like a < sign with the Hydrogens at the two ends and the oxygen at the angle. The hydrogens carry a postive charge and the oxygen carries a negative charge. -
 
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NateCrisman

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Not doubting your science/chemistry at all, I just don't see it being a realistic problem. maybe on a racer that doesn't see everyday heated use and spends a majority of it's time with the meth flowing or the engine off. Mine is a streetcar that's seeing 200miles a week of everyday drive, and I would think it's going to see maybe one or two 4-5 second long meth spray per day at most. If any water would be produced from that 10 seconds of spraying straight meth...and any of it that isn't drawn into the engine in that 10 seconds, will get evaporated from heat and airflow from the other 20-30 minutes of driving time that dry airflow is happening within the pipes/turbo system. Even if water did collect at the bottom of my "cold side" intercooler end tank.....what problem will that cause....cause if it's not being drawn into the engine via the 55lb/min of airflow during a pull....it's certainly not going to get pulled in and hydrolock while Im putzing around at 1/8 throttle.

Im going to guess that you chemistry paragraph kinda encapsulates how methanol is very hydroscopic and absorbs water if left out (like in a jar where it can't evaporate as fast as it soaks up moisture...like a 1gal jug with only a few sq-in of surface area)....yeah....well...I don't see it being a problem, sh*t....all the meth-injection companies want you to mix it 50/50 with water for flammability liability. I don't "think" +,- 5-10% water content will affect the tune or output all that much.

granted...I haven't run meth injection on a DSM yet, but I did run it on a supercharged dodge magnum with a roots blower, and I did a little stint of mixing in methanol into E85 in main fuel tank...(got up to 50% methanol before i ran out of injector on a 16g/auto setup that went mid 10s)


At this stage, Im FAR more worried about the wiring, pump, or fittings failing, or plugged nozzle destroying my motor than I am about water content or puddling. But I will take your advise and not spray ALOT at the inlet of the turbo....and if/when I do get to that point ...Ill be sure to pop the lower ic pipe and inlet pipe off every so often to see if there is any fluid building up in here.


On another note: my meth kit that should have arrived today, arrived at the seller's house instead. Apparently he doesn't know that the FROM: part of the shipping label goes on the upper left, and the TO: part goes on the middle bottom and had them reversed. He went to the post office with my meth kit in a box w/ hand written label, handed it over, and paid $12 to ship it to his own house.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif


Maybe tuesday when the parts arrive Ill have something to report other than my rambling about stuff I really don't know that much about yet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
 
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NateCrisman

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Im in the worst spot in NJ for E85 access, the closes of which is nearly 60 miles away at the Newark Airport, or way out into PA where E85 is "sometimes available, but not reliable". In past years, I'v had GizmoVR4 bring me E85 from NY state in 5 gal containers to run at the dragstrip, but man, that creates a whole can of worms with the next tank of 93 being "kinda mixed", and running like 1650cc injectors on pump gas for the rest of the daily driving. Not to mention having to "pansy tune" the engine for straight 93 as it is now and not being able to work on the tune for max power on street, making my trips to dragstrip kinda stressful with draining the tank, then re-doing the tune for E85, having to significantly tune each run, then switch it all back at end of the night.

The meth is really my only option for max potential in an everyday car. Sucks, but is what it is. Maybe if NJ goes ahead with their $0.27 gas tax hike to pay for roads/tunnel repairs, there might be some incentive for E85? wishful thinking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
 
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OldHairyBastard

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The water collected in the daily driven cars but guys were spraying as soon as it hit full boost 14-16 PSI. 20-22 PSI on a chipped tune was big boost on the GN back then and the air had to be cooled to prevent detonation. I don't think you will have any issues spraying the piss out of your car. Ice that bitch and crank the boost!
 

EMX5636

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I'm going to have to agree with OldHairy on this Nate. I had my nozzle a bit further away from the TB on my old Eclipse and I used to get a little pool every once in a while unless I was only "in it to win it". Enough even that it would mess with my GM MAF in blow-through. I now have 2 500cc nozzles just before the TB on the Galant, angled directly towards the throttle plate, and have had no issues.
 

EMX5636

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To also add to this thread... I never found a "good kit" to be worth it. I pieced together my own with a Shurflo pump, CoolingMist solenoid, and Snow Performance nozzles, all the things I liked the design of best. I've had more issues with progressive controllers than regular switches, so I stay away from them, but I don't start spraying until 18-20psi anyway. I'm using DSMLink to control it, and it works awesome.
 

NateCrisman

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Quoting EMX5636:
I'm going to have to agree with OldHairy on this Nate. I had my nozzle a bit further away from the TB on my old Eclipse and I used to get a little pool every once in a while unless I was only "in it to win it". Enough even that it would mess with my GM MAF in blow-through. I now have 2 500cc nozzles just before the TB on the Galant, angled directly towards the throttle plate, and have had no issues.



Ok, Ill take it from you guys with experience in this on a turbo 4G63, as I said, my only "meth injection" experience is with spraying it directly into the top of a roots blower on a modern mopar...obviously I couldn't see crap for deposits or leftover effects unless I took off the blower...but any deposits would either flow down the intake pipe and out the air filter...or right down into the motor.

Anyway....my "$200 used kit" showed up today...Im going to use the tank, pump, nozzle, 1/4" hose, fittings, check valve, and the M10 nozzle to start.. mounting the tank in the trunk for now, although once my AWS lines are gone, the pump/tank might get relocated to the pass side of the front subframe where the stock windshield tank is (might even use the oem tank). To start out..Im hooking it up with DSMlink activating a relay to power the pump and having the secondary maps "auto on" once the meth relay activates (so I'll have to tune in for the delay in flow). It won't have the ability to lower boost, so Im going to have to watch it and won't have any failsafes or gauge on flow. KISS at first, I can always add the progressive controller, flow gauge, and better failsafes for the long term once I know this is the permanent system.

Starting with the absolute minimum basic setup. Im actually going to have to make first tests with washer fluid...which in summer...is going to be pita to find with the full meth content....till I can obtain some straight methanol.

 
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iceman69510

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You could use one of the 4ws return tubes to run the meth from the trunk up to the engine. they are larger diameter and would provide extra storage capacity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif
 

EMX5636

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My entire setup is mounted up front where the ABS used to be. I had it trunk mounted in my Eclipse, and it was a PITA.

Also Nate, VP sells M1 Methanol in 5 gallon cans which is how I buy it. If you want to go crazy, my buddy swears by M5, which has bit of Nitromethane in it... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
 

EMX5636

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Oh for sure. But it picked up pretty good power over M1. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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