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Re: The next chapter for 338/2000


biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195905 posted 12/08/14 09:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Transmission is out. It was definitely slipping on the pressure plate side. I am not happy with the wear on the flywheel side so I am going to take it tomorrow and have someone turn it. I wish I had a lathe or I would do it myself. I hope a flat flywheel and a stronger pressure plate solves the problem. I am not wanting to do this again even though it takes me 75-90 minutes to pull it out. I also made a longer slave cylinder rod while I was in there tonight as I was out of adjustment as the bushings are shot in the clutch pedal assembly.

The cooling has nothing to do with why I convinced him. It was so I can be more aggressive and the motor be safe for those 20 minute lap sessions the car will have. I want it to be fast and reliable. It is semi-quick but, I am so use to maxed out cars it needs more. 25psi is just not enough. That and low timing make for an okay car. Not a rocket like I want. I run a hotpipe on my truck, granted it is a 67mm but, e85 does not cool it like you think it would but, with as much fuel as I cram into it, it does just fine.

Also weighed the car. It weighs 3040lbs with a half tank of fuel.



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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195932 posted 12/09/14 09:18 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you want to be more aggressive with the motor, I'd assume you would want a cooler intake charge to combat knock, no? More efficient cooling allows for a more aggressive tune, and E85 would allow for better cooling in a hotpipe setup by virtue of being largely composed of ethanol.

If you wanted to optimize the hotpipe setup for a more aggressive tune, you wouldn't use gasoline or E85. You'd use methanol. Hell, even water would yield better results cooling the intake charge than gasoline or E85. If the hotpipe is meant to cool the intake charge, you want a fluid that absorbs a lot of heat as it evaporates. If it aids in the combustion process as it absorbs heat, that's even better; hence methanol being a better choice.

I'd be curious to see one of the logs from this setup. By the time you dump enough fuel (gasoline or E85) in the hotpipe to effectively cool the intake charge, I'd think you'd be so rich that you'd be hurting power. This would hold especially true with a smaller turbo like a 16G.

Again, I'm not knocking what you're doing here, as the hotpipe setups you're using see to perform just fine. But, if you wanted to get more out of the hotpipe on this car, E85 would absolutely perform better than gasoline. I just don't understand why better cooling wouldn't be your reasoning for recommending E85, especially for this setup.



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1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (12/09/14 11:49 AM)

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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195936 posted 12/09/14 10:54 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Regardless of the fuel used we have always seen similar intake temperatures on a given setup. Sure, scientifically it works, in the real world things are different. I have been building and racing cars for over 15 years, and 8 of those being with hotpipes. They call them hotpipes for a reason. It has to do with the quality of fuel, not what it does for cooling. I tune them the same way I would if the car had an intercooler. We tune for what the car wants and for what works. I will not share catalogs. Nor do I save them anyway. There is nothing magical happening here. Just a well put together car. That with a quality tune is what make them run hard. The whole package, which a lot of people don't know how to figure out.



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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195937 posted 12/09/14 11:23 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well, in the absence of what scientifically makes sense or hard data showing real world results, I suppose I'll just have to take your word for it.



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Jesus_Negros
Unempowered ADMIN


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195949 posted 12/09/14 05:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Brett I'll send you the log info from my butt dyno when the car gets here.



Quoting coyotes:

Just because you WANT your rare turd to be valuable doesn't mean it's gonna be.




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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195952 posted 12/09/14 05:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Your butt dyno is way off since you've been rolling around in that slow ass blonde of yours. I'll entertain real numbers/logs...Everything else is moot.

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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195978 posted 12/09/14 11:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Go build your own hotpipe and test all you want. I am about to do another one on my max effort 14b car with staged fuel injection in the pipe there as well. The things just work as long as you don't get caught up in the temperature numbers. There is actually plenty of Mitsubishi cars that came non-intercooled from the factory. And a few of those did not even have bypass valves. Not to mention other manufacturers. And they did not have anything in the piping system.



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Jesus_Negros
Unempowered ADMIN


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195982 posted 12/10/14 12:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Starion!



Quoting coyotes:

Just because you WANT your rare turd to be valuable doesn't mean it's gonna be.




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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195990 posted 12/10/14 06:22 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I wouldn't ever build a hotpipe setup, because there are much better ways to cool the intake charge. I realize this because of science and logs, both of which you don't seem to recognize. But, you've been building racecars for 15 years, so clearly that supersedes all else.

If you don't get "caught up in the temperature numbers", you'll never realize how to optimize the setup. For liquid intercooling, the fluid used is the most important element in the entire system. You act like spraying 91 (yeah, that's the best you'll get in SoCal) octane California piss water is going to work as good as methanol or even E85. Even without logs, I can tell you you're not going to get the result desired. All you essentially have at that point is an overly capable fuel system. Richening the AFR to combat detonation is not the way, and any basic performance book will tell you the same. Seems to me someone who's been building racecars for 15 years would have thought these things through.

Sure, there are plenty of cars that come factory without intercoolers. Those cars are running laughable boost levels from the factory, and can get away without having an intercooler. Science tells us when you start making greater than stock power levels, there are more efficient ways to do things. There's a reason you don't see many builds utilizing a hotpipe alone. Science, brah.

I don't know Olson, and don't know the scope of his automotive expertise. I'm assuming he's relying on you to deliver a car that's performing optimally, since he's paying you his hard earned money. If I were him, I'd want to hear ideas on how to make that happen, not rely on what simply works. That's part of what this forum is for. The feedback I'm trying to provide here could help you build Olson a better car, but you act like you already have everything figured out. You sound like most of the old timers I know who are stubborn and set in their ways.

All I said initially was that you made the right choice to go with E85 for this setup. I'm not sure why you took issue with my reasoning, but I assure you it is sound.

Quoting biglady112:

Just think of it as water or methanol injection on steroids.



The opposite, actually. Methanol, or even water would be superior to gasoline or E85 for liquid intercooling in every sense. That was my point, and why I said kudos for going with E85, which would at least perform better than 91 pump gas.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (12/10/14 07:55 AM)

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Jesus_Negros
Unempowered ADMIN


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1195999 posted 12/10/14 09:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I don't see why logs couldn't be posted.



Quoting coyotes:

Just because you WANT your rare turd to be valuable doesn't mean it's gonna be.




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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196000 posted 12/10/14 09:00 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I had a nice big nasty response for you explaining how the world works. I hit the back button on my phone by accident. So I will just leave you with this. Jake is not paying me, he came up with this idea on his own, these setups work and do not leave anything on the table and until your cars can produce anything worth a shit, I have no reason to pay any attention to you. You can argue anything you want and ask for proof, the reality is until you or anyone comes and puts in time working on one of our pieces of shit or helps us meet a goal, you can all go fuck yourself and learn how to figure out how to go fast like I have. I don't owe anyone shit. We race our cars for us, not for anyone else. Your lucky I shared what little information I have. The one and only reason this thread exists is because Olson cannot be here for the build, so I have logged the progress so he can share with his ACTUAL friends and family of all the cool things going on with his car.



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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196001 posted 12/10/14 09:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you want a datalog, being one of those ACTUAL friends I was referring to, I am sure Jake would be happy to share once the car gets to California.



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Jesus_Negros
Unempowered ADMIN


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196002 posted 12/10/14 09:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just to smash the qualms in this thread. It's becoming a shitstorm of personal attacks etc etc. I mean I'm all about shitting up a thread just not build threads. Yes I'm a friend of his, I enjoy Olson he is very sexy.



Quoting coyotes:

Just because you WANT your rare turd to be valuable doesn't mean it's gonna be.





Edited by Turbro_Negro (12/10/14 09:11 AM)

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196003 posted 12/10/14 09:19 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Turbro_Negro:

I don't see why logs couldn't be posted.




They could be posted up, but then there would be proof that this doesn't perform like biglady would have you believe it does. God forbid he had to change his opinion about how awesome his hotpipe setup is on pump gas. You always get the same bullshit from him whenever you ask for real numbers. I remember back when someone asked for airflow numbers when he dyno'd his rat rod...To which he replied he doesn't even look at airflow numbers

I'm sure Jake has more sense than biglady, and he'll make some of his own changes to this setup to maximize its performance. I suspect this setup will perform well when executed properly, especially for autocross. I'm looking forward to updates, progress and future improvements when Jake gets the car.

Quoting Turbro_Negro:

Just to smash the qualms in this thread. It's becoming a shitstorm of personal attacks etc etc. I mean I'm all about shitting up a thread just not build threads. Yes I'm a friend of his, I enjoy Olson he is very sexy.




I'm not attacking anyone personally, just stating the facts.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (12/10/14 09:23 AM)

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Jesus_Negros
Unempowered ADMIN


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196006 posted 12/10/14 09:33 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I was referring to the "go fuck yourselfs".


I don't honestly think you're trolling Brett, so I agree that posting the logs could only help if nothing else. I also don't think Steve setup isn't going to work, I'm sure it'll perform. But I believe no setup is without room for improvement. That's why posting logs will not hurt. If anything it could help an already badass setup be more badass.



Quoting coyotes:

Just because you WANT your rare turd to be valuable doesn't mean it's gonna be.





Edited by Turbro_Negro (12/10/14 09:39 AM)

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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196007 posted 12/10/14 09:34 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Damn, hit the back button again. That one was good.



I GIVE ZERO FUCKS. I HATE YOU ALL.

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196008 posted 12/10/14 09:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Turbro_Negro:

But I believe no setup is without room for improvement.




+1



820/1000
1837/2000
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1813/2000-SOLD

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196013 posted 12/10/14 11:32 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Jake, that's exactly my point. If you are cool settling with the car as is, I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you get. However, if you want the most out of that setup, you won't get it as it's currently configured. You can't simply add 2 extra fuel injectors to the upper intercooler pipe, turn them up to shit in a bunch of extra fuel and call it efficient intercooling. It just doesn't work that way, and I'm sure you know that. Offline, T-Negro and I were already discussing ways you could improve this setup, and I feel like he and I see eye-to-eye on what could be done to improve. Hopefully, he can better convey what I'm trying to say in person when you see him.

As far as the experience Steve keeps referencing to, I don't give a shit how many cars he's tuned and built. Building 1, 8, or 100, cars doesn't change the facts.

I was honestly just trying to be helpful in my posts here, and start constructive conversation about how to make improvements to the setup. I know how it feels to come back from a deployment looking forward to enjoying life and motorsports again. If my comments here are unwanted by you, Jake, just say the word and I'll shut up.

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196021 posted 12/10/14 12:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've made a ton of suggestions in my previous posts. I could make a ton more if I saw a log, hence me asking.

People use air to air intercoolers because they are easy, reliable, and work well. Enough said.

Liquid intercoolers (e.g water/methanol injection) work well also, but are much more complex in comparison. Typically, you'll see people who use water/meth injection pair it with an air/air intercooler, to get the best of both worlds. The system needs to be "tuned" to optimize efficiency, so your average Joe typically doesn't want to dick with it. In addition, if your only intercooler is a liquid intercooler, it's a single point of failure. If at any time that system quits working, you're fucked. This is why Mark (Turbowop) has fail safes built into his meth setup which monitor the system for pressure. If at any point his system stops working, his car swaps back to his non-methanol map, no harm no foul.

Liquid intercooling works on the principal that as liquid changes state, it absorbs heat. To explain this principal simply, each liquid absorbs a different amount of heat as it evaporates, making some liquids better for liquid intercooling than others. Google latent heat of vaporization if you want the scientific explanation. The principal I've just described is the reason pump gas and E85 are garbage when used for liquid intercooling. This is also the reason I keep saying using water or methanol would be exponentially better. Using pump gas to intercool would be like pissing into the A/C system and expecting it to work. The properties of the "coolant" or fluid used in the system directly correlate to how well the system works.

According to biglady, the extra injectors are supposed to be used for intercooling. If their intended purpose is actually to supply extra fuel (e.g. a secondary fuel system, not an intercooler) that's a different story. But if they are supposed to provide an intercooling effect, they will do a horrible job on pump gas, and not much better on E85.

How would build I it? At minimum, I'd try to run methanol through the secondary injectors. Ideally, I'd couple the system you have with an air/air intercooler.

What I wouldn't do is run that setup on 25psi for any amount of time on pump gas...Especially shitty 91 octane California piss water.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (12/10/14 12:40 PM)

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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196024 posted 12/10/14 01:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
People have been making far more power longer than we have on blow thru carburetor setups without an intercooler. And have probably never seen a dyno. We are not stuck in 2001. Why I it that dam guys get so caught up with airflow numbers? No one else uses them. And I'd you have abdam with aem or proefi you don't get these numbers. It is just a guessed, calculated number. I see ridiculous intake temperatures but do not seem to have any issue making 800hp through an auto with no issues. With a stock intake manifold. That is what makes this hobby and country great. Freedom of expression so I don't have to follow the path every other dick has to. Plus, this was designed and built with my own hands. Right or wrong.



I GIVE ZERO FUCKS. I HATE YOU ALL.

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196027 posted 12/10/14 01:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting biglady112:

I see ridiculous intake temperatures but do not seem to have any issue making 800hp through an auto with no issues.




Did you ever stop to think how much over 800hp you'd be making if you weren't seeing ridiculous temperatures? That's my whole point here. You seem content by settling for what works, without actually considering how it could work better. As soon as I put forth a suggestion about how I think it could work better, you fly off the handle telling us all to go fuck ourselves.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD

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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196034 posted 12/10/14 01:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well then I guess you can go fuck yourself for the second time today. If you could attempt not to be close minded do you think with 16,000cc's of fuel I might actually be doing an okay job at cooling it? What about the 12,800cc's of fuel spraying after the temperature sensor, do you think they might have a chance at doing a good job? Well jake's car is the same thing, only on a smaller scale. Ever think his cylinder head temps, egt's and combustion temps might actually be within reason and not able to tell because of a sensor reading 6" BEFORE the throttle body. There is more to the tale than you are willing to open your eyes to.



I GIVE ZERO FUCKS. I HATE YOU ALL.

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GSTwithPSI
A hole
820/1000
1837/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196035 posted 12/10/14 01:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well, I guess you're the only one in the entire world who was smart enough to figure out dumping a metric shit ton of fuel in the the motor eliminates the need for a real intercooler? Congratulations on your ground breaking discovery

Clearly, it's me who needs to open their eyes

I'm done here. In light of your latest discovery, I'll safely assume you're a certified moron.

Edit: Jake, I apologize for shitting up your thread. I was legitimately trying to make some worthwhile suggestions.



820/1000
1837/2000
1546/2000-SOLD
1813/2000-SOLD


Edited by GSTwithPSI (12/10/14 02:03 PM)

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I <3 AMS


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196038 posted 12/10/14 02:27 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Wow! You too at it again eh? certified moron?

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biglady112
or what
359/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1196039 posted 12/10/14 02:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Let me make it real easy. You see my name, stay the fuck away. I am not going to adhere to anyone's advice.

But maybe we should tell John Sheperd, Tony N. And his dad, Jett racing and Brent Rau they all could have had better times if they had intercoolers. You know, because everyone has passed those guys up so long ago simply because they had intercoolers.



I GIVE ZERO FUCKS. I HATE YOU ALL.

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