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GVR4 possible over-dog for DSP (AutoX/Solo II)..?

My GVR4 saga continues. I picked up a clean, one-owner, California Galant VR4 about 2 years ago now. I had built up a stock-pile of parts to make it a fun, fast daily driver. Then with my new company etc. I just didn't have time for it, so I sold (nearly all of) the parts and prepared to sell the car. In the mean-time the trans/tcase got rebuilt (and a Cusco front LSD added) and the car was in pieces. As such I've never actually been able to sell it, and it's still sitting at a friends house non-running.

The latest wild idea I've had is to build it to DSP spec for AutoXing. I've always enjoyed AutoXing, and between my '99 Z/28 Camaro (sold almost 5 years ago) and my current '02 Z06 I've probably done over 100 AutoXs. The Z06 continues its progression to a track-only car (600RWHP LS7 completed a few months ago, and a full cage going in currently) it doesn't fit in any AutoX class, and really is just retarded as an AutoX car. For those that aren't familiar with the "SP" or Street Prepared classes, they are the next step beyond the stock classes, and allow a fair amount of modding but not too wild. The leading letter designates the set of cars that are in the class, and the GVR4 falls in "D"SP. For reference, the Evo VII/IX are cleaning house in BSP (their "SP" class), so much so that there is talk/motions to move them to ASP (where they'd compete w/ modified C5 and C6 Corvettes, to include the Z06s and I believe ZR1s, Vipers, 911s of all sorta including TT/GT2/GT3, etc). AWD and AutoX really do get along well.

In DSP the current "car to have" is the E36 BMW 325is. M3s are not DSP legal, so the 325is is the "best" non-M E36 2-door. Locally there is also a guy w/ a XR4ti that is very fast, and one extremely well prepped 2.5 RS (still NA as per the rules) that is very quick as well. I think a GVR4 could have the potential of being a huge over-dog here.

Roughly, the rules would allow:
[*]Unlimited boost /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif [*]Any intake/exhaust setup imaginable so long as it retains the stock turbo[*]Any FMIC[*]Any fuel system (and any fuel, to include E85)[*]Any suspension mods that retain the stock mounting locations[*]Any wheels/tires[*]Add-on fender flares to accommodate said wheels/tires (complete aftermarket fenders a not allowed, only added flares)[*]Minor weight reduction (things like race seats, steering wheel, AC-delete, etc[*]Any LSDs desired (again, my trans already has a Cusco front LSD) so long as they retain the stock cases (I think this means I could not use a 1G 4-bolt rear pumpkin/LSD /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif )[*]Any clutch[*]Any brakes[/list]

There's a lot more detail to the rules, but that's sort of the gist of it. Some of the details I'm trying to figure out are the legality of ABS and 4WS deletes. The way the rules read is that as long as a part was stock on any car "on the same line" it is legal to swap onto your car. The non-VR4 Galants are "on the same line" as the GVR4 so I would assume if a base model Galant did not have ABS (I'm not sure if they did/didn't) and did not have 4WS (of course they didn't) I could swap to those parts legally... I'm working on confirming that.

So a few questions:
[*]How much wheel-HP could one make on a stock (assuming freshly rebuilt) 14b with E85 and all the supporting mods (fuel, FMIC, ARPs, etc)?[*]What are the best options in suspension currently for the GVR4 (last I looked there were only hokey Ebay coilovers for our cars, no "real" options?[*]What is a realistic weight for a GVR4 with race front seats, a light steering wheel, AC/Stereo delete, ABS delete, 4WS delete?[*]With fender-flares could I run a 275 or 285 width tire?[*]Will the hubs hold up to AutoXing on a 285 Hoosier A6?[*]What am I overlooking that's going to hurt my cause?[/list]

I know a local guy that ran a GVR4 in DSP pretty successfully before they changed the rules to allow unlimited boost, and before E85 was around. He also didn't want to hack up his fenders so he was only on a 245 tire. He's pretty convinced that if he still had his GVR4 and went up to 275 or 285 tires, more boost and E85 it'd be a class-winning car (obviously assuming the driver was there too).

-TJ
 

H05TYL

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You can adapt Evo coilovers the same way you adapt stock evo suspension - I have a set of evo 5 Cusco's in one of my vr4's.

You can fit a 4 bolt lsd into your stock rear diff casing - a JDM plate lsd (either vr4 rs or lancer evo) would be a better option.

Are aftermarket or reground camshafts allowed?

What sort of speeds does an autocross car see? You could potentially swap to 3.909 final drive...

Probably the biggest harm to your cause is the vr4's pitiful steering lock
 

Thanks for the quick reply!

When adapting Evo c/o's, is the modification done to the c/o or to the mounting points on the car? The rules are very specific about retaining the stock mounting locations for the suspension, no modifying the mounts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Good to know about putting a 4-bolt or RS or Evo diff into the stock housing, thanks!

No aftermarket cams, the motor has to remain internally stock (but head gasket and ARPs are allowed, as far as I can tell I'm working on confirming that).

AutoX typically tops out around 60, and you probably spend the most time between 30-50 dependent on the course. Back when I AutoXed a lot we had a bigger venue w/ a super grippy concrete surface. We setup really big, fast AutoXs (regularly seeing 100+ in my Z/28 then Z06) but those days are long gone. Now we are stuck with small, somewhat bumpy, slippery asphalt lots. This is where I think the GVR4's huge advantage over the current class-leading 325is cars is. It will make more power, and make it to all 4 wheels. You cannot change final drive anyway.

Is it lack of steering lock that is the issue? The courses are tight, but not that tight that I think the GVR4's steering lock will be an issue (my buddy that raced his never commented on it being an issue).

Thanks,
TJ
 

H05TYL

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To fit the e5 coilovers I drilled new holes in the front strut towers, however you could use a camber plate to suit the vr4 and not have to make new holes.
In the rear the lower mount of the coilover needs the 'eye' from a vr4 shock welding into the fork - no mods to the car itself.

I don't know what gear ratio's us gvr4's came with, but here's a handy calculator link

It's in km/h not mph - 96km/h = 60mph - we also need to take into account the transfer case ratio when entering the final drive number.
Are you allowed to change gearbox internals for other factory parts?
 

curtis

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Clarksville TN
What you need to find is an original HKS turbo upgrade manifold, o2 and manifold and call it stock. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh one more thing If they allow the same for the vette I have an internal plumbed lS6 intake with a 300 shot probably a little much in a parking lot race but you could turn the car quite easily with the gas pedal plus its all hidden so it looks stock. Did that in an SCCA event in nashville once. Hit like 8 cones and totally missed the last corner but was smoking 4th through the straight away and all the V8 guys were clapping for me.
 
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H05TYL-
Hmm, with the right camber-plate then I think I could do the e5 coilovers. The rear-lower is not a problem at all as you pointed out. Thanks!

You are not allowed to change the internals of the gear box (i.e. no DSM 1st gear etc.). My box was rebuilt w/ the stock GVR4 ratios, so I'm okay there.

curtis-
Unless the HKS parts were factory installed on a model available here (US) then it would not be legal. I'm going for truly legal, not just legal appearing in case I ever decide to go to Nationals. I'm fairly certain that rules out even stock JDM parts, though I'll check.

On that note, were there any better parts on the JDM cars (particularly the turbo) that would be worth trying to track down? I think the stock USDM turbo will be the biggest limiting factor. Even on E85 it's only going to make so much power.

The funny thing is the exhaust manifold is open so I could have any fancy-schmancy manifold I wanted... but would still have to hang the 14b (that's the designation for the stock USDM turbo, right?) on it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As for n2o it is explicitly illegal in any form of AutoX. Again, I'm going for truly legal not just "get away with it" legal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks,
TJ
 
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H05TYL

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Messages
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Wgtn, NZ
If you are allowed to use stock JDM parts (which seems unlikely) the 16G turbo obviously is a good start.

a vr4 evo gearbox and final drive would be helpful - the ratio's are much closer (with the exception of the stupidly large gap between 4th and 5th, a regular vr4 5th gear sorts that though) and 1st isn't so stupidly short.
 

So JDM GVR4s had the 16g? I'm not going to change the trans or anything since I just got this one rebuilt, but I believe you're right anyway: JDM stuff isn't legal.

-TJ
 

H05TYL

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about 5097 JDM vr4's have/had 16G turbo's - commonly referred to as Evo Zero's, or vr4 evo's
 

JSchleim18

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Long Island, NY
The Galant GS-X (factory AWD non-turbo) has no ABS and no AWS so you could use their rear subframe to delete AWS as well as their proportioning valve and brake lines for the non-ABS conversion. I'm sure some Galant models didn't come with cruise control so you could delete that.

You could run HotBits coilovers. They're made for the GVR-4 but reach upwards of $2,000 but worth every penny from what I hear.

If you *could* use JDM parts - 16G turbo, rear 4-bolt diff without AWS came on some JDM GVR-4 models.

You can stuff 4 bolt internals into a GVR-4 pumpkin and just cut off the plastic gear that runs the AWS so it is still the factory pumpkin.
 
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belize1334

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I'm building my car for this exact purpose. Over-dog in DSP where it's classed with ALL GALANTS of ALL YEARS.

14b and stock 4g63 are REQUIRED. And no arp hardware. That's why I just sold all of mine.

Also, FMIC is ok but you CANNOT cut the front bumper to accommodate it. That's why I'm running a L2A intercooler with a heat exchanger where the a/c condenser used to be.

I figure with my setup I MIGHT be able to pull out 300whp. Honestly, I'm not worrying about head-studs or HG...I think they can handle it.
 

Good to see I'm not the only one with this idea! Are you planning to run E85 or just pump gas? I think E85 should allow more boost and power, if the HG can hold it. E85 is approx 104 octane, and also has a massive cooling effect.

I looked at the rules more, and honestly the head-bolt thing is sorta muddy. The wording is:

Hardware items (nuts, bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar items of unrestricted origin. Safety wire, threadlocker compounds, and locking nuts are permitted. These allowances are strictly to allow components to be replaced from alternate sources other than the original manufacturer. They should not be construed as an allowance to replace components with those which could be considered a "higher performance" alternative.

So, studs are out of the question since I don't think they fall under "similar item" depending on your definition I suppose. Even ARP head bolts could clearly be considered "higher performance" since the idea is to get more clamping force, allowing more boost. But on the other hand they are simply a "similar item" from a different source.

-TJ
 
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belize1334

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^^ I was on that same train of thought so I started searching around the sccaforums. The consensus is that the stud vs. bolt thing is no big deal since they accomplish the same task. But ARP is specifically an after-market item intended to significantly increase clamping force. So, in any application where clamping force could be considered a performance gain (i.e. turning up the boost) it's against the rules. On the other hand, if you had an n/a 4g63 nobody would care because the OE headstuds are already overkill so ARP are just more overkill but you'd never "benefit" from the difference. Topline, on the other hand, would be ok all around since it's designed to be OE replacement.

Other useful tidbits. You can swap to non-abs stuff if you call it a cross-swap between the G-VR4 and the G-GSX. Likewise you can get rid of 4ws via the same ruling. 4-bolt is ok since it uses the same housing as the G-GSX 3-bolt and internals are unrestricted (as are axles for accommodating them).

The 14b and the long-block MUST REMAIN STOCK. But, all manifolds, o2 housings, throttle-bodies, blow-off-valves, intake pipes, etc are all free game. You can even go speed density if you want.
 

Olson

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Im almost positive that you can run arp hardwear look into it before you deside to sell it.
 

belize1334

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Well I already sold all of the ARP stuff. Actually heading to the P.O. to ship the last of it now. It's no huge loss...I don't plan on rebuilding all that soon and I really don't think that the stock head-bolts are that big of a problem. I ran 20psi on my 16g with them and they held. I imagine they'll do the same for 20psi on a 14b.

You're right that it's a grey area but I decided to read it on the conservative side. My take is this... if I need them to run the boost I want then they're a performance gain and illegal. On the other hand, if I don't need them...then I don't need them.
 
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85tr

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Would they really know the difference from a 14b and a 16g ? Thought they looked exactly the same externally.
 

kartorium

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You might also look into running the fwd spindles on the front. Not sure if that would be legal or not.

It's been a long time since I've raced or been active, I've kinda fallin out of it the past two years, but I remember second gear needing to be a bit shorter then I could just rev a bit higher to compensate. This would create a friendlier power curve, unfortunately it sounds like you can't do that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I remember often wanting to shift to first, but it was too slow, so I'd deal with bog in second. Anything to shift the power a bit lower, but not hurt top end too much is good. I remember constantly running second gear out over 7k, but also needing the dig below 3k. Shifting to first (unless on a very tight pivot cone) would create wheel spin, and cost too much valuable time.

Tuning things to rotate with control under breaking/lift worked well for my driving style and the car.

I had no problems with the galant's steering, and with a small nice wheel it responded well.

I now run 255 azenis on an 8.5" wheel and have them tucked easily into the stock fenders. The overall grip is insane, and actually is a bit sketchy on the streets with tracking and the change of snap characteristics. With the right rate springs and a small over-flair you can easily run 275's but the overall diameter and weight starts getting a bit out of control, especially without gobs of hp/tq. I think I remember 285's being a better option cause you could actually reduce the OD by running them? Can't remember though. You should talk to MJ about running tires like this, he could fill you in. He might also have experience with wheel bearing and general hub wear/stress with this setup.

I seem to remember removing items from the front seats back being legal, but that might have been SM only? I'd look into getting carbon hood and trunks if possible and delete the rear spoiler. I remember always being pretty much the heaviest car in class, so any thing you can do to reduce, do it! Even little stuff like switching to non-power antenna.

I don't think modifying the upper strut holes is illegal because you aren't changing geometry. Anything to increase caster and camber is obviously a plus.

Look into running some WI if rules allow. Methanol injection was illegal, but I think just water is fine and can be beneficial with the high boost on the 14b.

Can you run aftermarket proportioning valves in DSP?

Also, good you already have a nice front LSD, that made a big difference on my car.

Maybe I'll get my car back into shape and run this year, might be time for a comeback /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

belize1334

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For transmissions there are no allowed modifications except that differentials are unrestricted. For my money though any transmission which adds no per-run performance gain is gonna be admissible. That means, I'm ok with DSM transmissions since the shorter 1st gear is less likely to break but actually a detriment up until the breaking point. I'm also ok with things like improved forks and shot-peening and all that since it only makes the transmission stronger and last longer but it won't make the car faster per-se. Also, 4-spider differentials are explicitly legal as differentials in general are open so long as they live in the same "housing" as the original. Double cone gears are out though since they improve shift-feel and could possibly improve your time.

I don't know how you get tires that big to fit. I've got 225/50/16 right now and they barely clear the fender lip and already they rub the inside splash-shield when I turn.

Slotting is the top is allowed as are camber bolts and/or slotting the strut. But you CAN't enlarge the upper strut hole. Since my teins already max out the hole there's no point slotting. But w/ only -2* camber I think I'll put some camber bolts back in to bump it up to -3*. Maybe run -2* in the back.

As for the 16g/14b difference... 16g is illegal... end of story. I don't mind bending the rules when it doesn't give an advantage but even a s16g will make 20% more power then a 14b and that's cheating. That's why my s16g will be up for sale next month.

Another hot tip is gonna be to run the power-steering pump from a n/t 4g63. Since all galants are listed on the same line, any galant from any part may be swapped in (though turbo/engine matings have to be maintained). The DSM's and Galants w/ 2.0 DOHC 4g63 both had the same power-steering pump which is rumored to have a higher-rpm cutout and thus avoid the loss of steering above 6500rpm. So, unlike DSMs where turbo and n/t are in a different class, with galants you can drop that n/a ps pump in there and eliminate a major defect.
 
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You can do the p/s pump from a 1.8 na dsm to get rid of the low speed cutout.

Also for parking lot liquid to air ic's is going to need a huge heat exchanger (think as big as the old ac condenser). My 911 with the liquid to air did AMAZING on the highway but on a hot parking lot auto x course, the small heat exchanger was not enough to keep the coolant from overflowing. I thought about putting a small fan on it but didn't get around to it.

Quoting belize1334:


I don't know how you get tires that big to fit. I've got 225/50/16 right now and they barely clear the fender lip and already they rub the inside splash-shield when I turn.





Offset. On my te37's I ran 245s for a while and had enough room to do 275's if I threw more camber at it.
 
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belize1334

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But if you make the offset small then you stick out past the fender. If you make the offset big then you rib the inboard splash shield. I barely clear the fender with my 225 at 40 and I already rub the inboard splash shield at full lock.

As for the heat exchanger, the one that's going in is gonna be 24*2*6 and I'm going to duct it onto the lower half of the radiator so that the main cooling fan draw air through the HE. If I get overheating of if the HE still gets too warm then I'll add another fan. Remember, that an autocross run is only about a minute long with signifant down-time between runs. As long as there's enough water in the system the specific heat of H2O should keep the temps down during the run and then I'll have 15 minutes for it to cool off again. It may not be as effective as a full race FMIC but it'll keep me out of street modified which means I might stand a chance. In SM there's no way I could keep up with 500awhp Evos that cost a hundred-grand to build... I'd rather gamble in the L2A intercooler.
 
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