The Top Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 Resource

Join the best E39A 1991-1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 community and document your GVR4 journey.

  • Software Upgraded - Reset Your Password to Login
    In order to log in after the forum software change, you need to reset your password. If you don't have access to the email address you used to register your GVR4.org account, you won't be able to reset your password. In that case, follow the instructions here to regain access to the forum.

Merits of running no BPV

Andy_S

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
982
Location
Shithole Wisconsin
I have been hearing of more "street cars" running without BPV's. Faster boost response during throttle off-on events. Also for street cars that take the corners, the loss of power mid-turn when you lift the throttle just slightly (enough to vent) is absent. So thats the claim I have heard. I also have always thought of compressor surge as harmful to a turbo's life due to bearing load. And in a few instances, I've heard of bent throttle plate shafts and worse.

So, Some factory turbo cars of the past run no BPV's. Some claim emission standards forced their introduction. Most race cars run without, but with their budgets, the performance benefits seem worth it. Then there is the "street cars". Is there any merit to removing it for performance reasons? Does the faster boost response outweigh the potential damage (if it does damage a turbo, which some claim it won't)?

Just wondering if anybody has studied this before. A before and after would be great or maybe a datalog. Also has anyone experienced damage do to off throttle compressor surge?
 

Barnes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,249
Location
Richland, WA
img.php


I really doubt this is worth it. Although research and data is welcome if you want to be the guinea pig.
 

Andy_S

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
982
Location
Shithole Wisconsin
Haha, nice. The main reason I bring it up is because it came up on the mr2 board. They seemed to have great results without bpv's. I would link it but I doubt many of you have membership there. There was some test done by maxima guys on autospeed, but I have to look around for their graphs.
 

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
Don't want to seem like the historian but there is a 70 year old man who has been racing for 40 years who sat me down one day and gave me the skinny on the BPV/BOV. Here is the story.

The current usage of the BPV is a beneficial side effect of its original intended purpose which had nothing to do with the turbo or spool or emissions. Back in the day when cars didn't run fuel injection there rose a problem. See, turbo's used to be carburated draw through designs, that is, they were positioned such that the compressor was fed by the carburetor. Essentially the carb was in front of the compressor inlet and the turbo outlet ran right into the intake manifold, non-intercooled. The intake path had to be short as possible since everything post plate at the carb would be under vacuum. So let's say these pioneers want to increase the boost and intercool the charge. Now the intake path is getting alot bigger and all of it under vacuum until the plate opens. The guys realized they would hit the gas and sit for several seconds before the car even began to move. The bigger the IC, the more pipes, the worse it was. None of these cars needed a BOV but they did need some throttle response. Attempts were made to use a secondary plate between the turbo/IC and the manifold which helped but was still not optimal. Many aftermarket supercharger setups can still be bought utilizing a dual TB setup, one before and one after the charger for this reason. This again is greatly exacerbated by the addition of an intercooler. To be clear here, this is not turbo lag. This is throttle response. Turbo lag is a product of exhaust flow and turbine weight.

So in order to fix this someone says, "Hey, lets put the carb back on the manifold and push it through. That way we won't have that vacuum and throttle response will be normal." Sure enough they did and all was right with the world, until, they let off the throttle and the car died. What happened? Well, when the throttle plate closed the air still being pumped by the turbo, in a state of surge btw (Which is what causes the noise of not running a BOV, surge being actually defined as trying to create a boost pressure for which you have not enough airflow to support)....surge, would flow into the carb and blow the gas out of the bowls, drying them instantly and stopping the car dead. Problem.

How do we deal with this? We need some sort of valve that opens up under vacuum and vents that pressure off to keep it from blowing the fuel away.

Hence, BOV.

The added benefit and its current application is that the uncomfortable noise of the compressor wheel in a state of surge was also gone. This made the car much more reasonable to drive on the street. The Grand Nationals didn't have a BOV. Up until the 80's I don't know of any car that did but I am sure there is one. BOV's are however a fairly recent invention and any fuel injected car does not need them. I'm not making any claim about spool or anything because I have not seen data on it but I imagine it is another additional side benefit.

To make another analogy.

Porsche has estimated that due to the mechanical stresses placed upon it's LeMans race cars, the stresses of a single mile on the track are equivalent to 1000 miles in a street car, their words not mine. These LeMans cars travel roughly 2-4 thousand miles over 24 hours, without changing oil, non-stop, banging gears and shifting more than most people do in a lifetime. They run crazy setups, with insane turbo systems, and no BOV. So it's a mechanical equivalent 2-4 million miles on a street car, all at once, no BOV and no turbo failures due to lack of one. The idea that BOV's are saving the turbo is a nice way to sell BOV's, but has no data to back that claim. Even if it did, it is still an unintended side benefit of its original use. Now they are used to keep the noise down, another non-intended side benefit.

And that is how it was told to me by a guy who built one of the very first ones by hand. So no, you don't need one.

/brox
 
Last edited:

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
Yes. However, I would not have a problem not doing so and have done so before. The issue is that at stock boost levels a car like a GN was fairly tame as far as sound goes even with no BOV, when you're running 25+ pounds, it gets much less tame. Like I said, the unintended side benefits are nice and may in fact be greater collectively than its original use, especially now since the advent of fuel injection. It just isn't the reason it was invented.

/brox
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Some of you may recall that I was having an issue with my rpms rising between gears when I shifted. At it's worst I would shift at 6k and the rpms would rise to 7+k as soon as I let off the gas and engaged the clutch. The issue arose immediately after I switched to a different IC and put the bov on the end-tank. To fix it, I added a second BOV on the other end-tank. Problem solved. The point is, there is another benefit to BOVs in vehicles where the idle air is drawn past the throttle plate from the charge pipes. If the charge pipes are under boost and you close the throttle plate then A LOT more air goes through the idle-air passages than would if the pipes were back at ambient pressure. This causes the rpms to spike between shifts unless you can quickly restore ambient pressure in the pipes. BOVs do this.
 

Barnes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,249
Location
Richland, WA
Quoting broxma:
Yes. However, I would not have a problem not doing so and have done so before. The issue is that at stock boost levels a car like a GN was fairly tame as far as sound goes even with no BOV, when you're running 25+ pounds, it gets much less tame. Like I said, the unintended side benefits are nice and may in fact be greater collectively than its original use, especially now since the advent of fuel injection. It just isn't the reason it was invented.

/brox



So the only reason you run one is because you don't like how loud compressor surge is at 25psi?
 

Andy_S

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
982
Location
Shithole Wisconsin
Very interesting. So the problems you were experiencing in this thread was related to residual boost pressure pushing past the ISC because of a slow reacting or too small of a bov?

click

Would you believe then that a BPV-less setup with the ISC drawing from an ambient pressure source, as described in your thread, could result in increased driveablilty and performance benefits?


Some of this may sound redundant or unnecessary, but I always like a good technical discussion and if the result is we can save money and perform better... why not.
 

broxma

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
911
Location
San Antonio Tx
Quoting BarnesMobile:
So the only reason you run one is because you don't like how loud compressor surge is at 25psi?



So I can see what you are doing and the point you are trying to make. But what I said earlier is about the invention of and the need, not the current application. The unintended benefits may be in fact be greater than its original function, to paraphrase myself, however "need" is not on the list. I am saying it is not needed for mechanical safety reasons. There is one on my car because it came that way. If it didn't, then yes, my main reason for adding one would be because of compressor surge noise or possible one of the other unintended benefits, but not to save the turbo.

You are however asking a loaded question to make a point. Your question assumes a false dichotomy and that the original condition was optional. The car came with a BPV and there is more than one purpose for having one, as I stated. I am asserting a claim based on historical evidence given to me by one of the original inventors. You are using circular logic to attempt to get me to admit to a different or greater purpose of the item outside of its intended use, which I have already done. You are ignoring the assertion or claim and attacking a weaker position. This is called a straw man fallacy.

Or am I reading your line of questioning wrong? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

/brox
 

mikus

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
2,763
Location
Aurora IL
Speaking to potential for damage - I've read discussions both ways. Corky Bell says "yes, damage" and while some people disagree with his stuff, he knows more than me so I listen.

As well - I ran a car for a bit set up with 1) a lower quality turbo intake coupler, and 2) an insufficient PBV setup. The heated charge in reverse, melted the coupler pre-turbo. This was evidenced by coupler deformation and a slight "silicon" (or not...) film, produced by the heat, collecting upwards from the turbo in intake tube. The telltale noise was there of course. That turbo died well before its time from in/out play - it was enough to convince me that damage is a concern.
 

Barnes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,249
Location
Richland, WA
Actually I'm trying to figure out why you are running a blow off valve. That's really it. You could just answer that instead of giving me a lecture on logical fallacies based on an argument I've never made.
 

Muskrat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
2,107
Location
Lexington, KY
Here's my theory on the issue. Please keep in mind it's a theory, and based soley on my knowledge as a Mechanical Engineer and the through processes I developed learning that field.

Without a BPV:

1) Compressor continues to compress air into the intake, after throttle plate is closed.

2) Pressure spikes in the intake tube. Causing higher stress on the compressor blades, as well as increased thrust loading. (Question, how much? This is important, for fatigue anaylsis). This is where potential turbo damage comes into play.

3) Because of this increased loading, the compressor slows down faster, meaning you have worse turbo response when you get back on the throttle.
3a) In a race car with anti-lag, this is negated, but increased point #2. As well as turbine wheel damage.

4) In a race car, there isn't as much cyclic loading. You're in boost as much as possible. So even during a long endurance race, I'd bet the turbo system sees more abuse in the life of a street car, then the LeMon's car see's. Technology like NLTS, etc can even mean you're just passing that air through the engine.

What all this means is, depending on how much of a loading not having the BOV applies, determines how much potential for damage there is. At low boost applications, I highly doubt you'd see noticable damage over the life of the turbo. At higher boost presures and bigger compressors, I'd expect to see more damage, but I wouldn't go around saying, "If you don't run a BOV you're turbo will only last 5k miles." There are so many other factors that can kill a turbo much easier.
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Quoting Andy_S:
Very interesting. So the problems you were experiencing in this thread was related to residual boost pressure pushing past the ISC because of a slow reacting or too small of a bov?

click

Would you believe then that a BPV-less setup with the ISC drawing from an ambient pressure source, as described in your thread, could result in increased driveablilty and performance benefits?


Some of this may sound redundant or unnecessary, but I always like a good technical discussion and if the result is we can save money and perform better... why not.



I believe that is true.

The problem is that the ISC (and BISS for that matter) draw air from a charged source. So if your BOV reacts too slowly or isn't big enough then you get an rpm spike during shift. Most people probably don't notice it much because the 1G bov is pretty sizeable. I noticed it because I relocated it in such a way that it wasn't as affective. Also, the magnified airflow is much more significant at lower engine speeds where it represents a larger fraction of the tytpical airflow. The ISC hangs open for a second after you let off the throttle (dash pot) and the BISS is always where you set it. When I had one BOV I had a huge rpm spike at low rpm shifts (1,500+ rpm) and a sizeable one if I shifted at high rpm (1,000 rpm). That was with the ISC functional. I blocked the ISC (leaving only the BISS) and I still got a sizeable low rpm spike but not as much at high rpm. Then I installed the second BOV. Now the spike with the ISC functional is smaller than it had been with the ISC blocked off. If I shift at 3k (10psi) then it still jumps to 4k. But by 5k I can shift as hard and fast as I want at any boost that I want and there is no spike at all. I suspect that this is the same as most peoples' setups but that nobody notices the low-rpm high-boost spike because few people have turbos that spool low enough AND are also in situations to ever let off and shift at 3k. It just doesn't come up very often.

If you were to run with no BOV (or CBV or BPV or whatever you want to call it) then I think you'd need to have not only the ISC drawing from a non-charged source but the BISS as well. I've looked into how to do this. For the ISC I think it would be simple. Just install a block-off plate that only has the one passage open (from ISC into TB) but leaves the source passage and FIAV both blocked. Then you could tap the lower housing and run a 3/8" hose straight to your intake pipe with a check-valve to eliminate pressure loss under boost. The BISS is gonna be a tougher bit to solve. But, with some careful machine work you could probably do something similar and block the feed port and then drill and tap and tee that into the same feed source coming from the intake pipe. If you were set up for SD it would be easier still since you wouldn't have to route lines to the intake pipe but could just put filters on the fittings where you tap them.
 

H05TYL

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
752
Location
Wgtn, NZ
I have a problem with the suggestion that the isc drawing from a pressurised source will cause the engine to increase RPM's under 0% throttle, simply because the ECU cuts all fuel during decel (rpm greater than idle + 0% throttle = no fuel).

Porsche eventually fitted BPV's to it's turbocharged 917/10 prototype for a reason not yet mentioned - to improve off boost throttle response the engine could draw air IN through the BPV, thus not having to "suck through" the slow moving compressor.
 

turbowop

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,972
Location
Yakima, WA
Quoting Muskrat:


3) Because of this increased loading, the compressor slows down faster, meaning you have worse turbo response when you get back on the throttle.
3a) In a race car with anti-lag, this is negated, but increased point #2. As well as turbine wheel damage.





This is the first thing I think of when wondering whether or not one should be used. And weren't most GN's automatics? Not a whole lot of shifting going on there.
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Quoting H05TYL:
I have a problem with the suggestion that the isc drawing from a pressurised source will cause the engine to increase RPM's under 0% throttle, simply because the ECU cuts all fuel during decel (rpm greater than idle + 0% throttle = no fuel).



For one thing, we don't get 0% throttle position at idle. We get 10% if the tps is set correctly. And if you go take a data-log it does not cut fuel under this situation. IPW goes to about 1.5ms for about a second after throttle-lift. At least it does in my car. If it isn't supposed to and somebody can explain why mine does then I'll be a happy camper (assuming I can fix it).

Edit: I'm finding threads on tuners that describe coast-down and suggest that the injectors should shut off completely when the throttle closes (tps=10%) AND idle switch goes hi AND rpm >1700. I do NOT get this behavior. My injectors don't shut off until about a second after lift-off for coast-down. Can we get some confirmation on this behavior? Perhaps somebody could log IDC during shift?
 
Last edited:

H05TYL

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
752
Location
Wgtn, NZ
Sorry, 0% throttle was referring to the throttle plate being closed, rather than the 10% the logger shows when the throttle is closed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

The delay your seeing could be a result of the sample rate being slower if your logging multiple parameters perhaps?
 

steve

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2003
Messages
18,897
Location
NJ
Quoting belize1334:
For one thing, we don't get 0% throttle position at idle. We get 10% if the tps is set correctly.[/i]



That's just the value that the ECU receives. When the throttle is fully closed, the ECU should see a value of 10%. That doesn't mean the throttle plate is 10% open. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif afaik
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Quoting H05TYL:

The delay your seeing could be a result of the sample rate being slower if your logging multiple parameters perhaps?



Definitely not. As you correctly pointed out. In order for the rpms to spike the engine needs fuel and air. Hm... I think we're getting off topic here. This business of what the injectors do at lift-off merits some research. For this thread, suffices to say that if your injectors don't shut off immediately after lift-off then having no BOV is going to aggravate the rpm-spike.
 
Support Vendors who Support the GVR-4 Community
Boosted Fabrication ECM Tuning ExtremePSI Fuel Injector Clinic Jacks Transmissions JNZ Tuning Kiggly Racing Morrison Fabrications RixRacing RockAuto RTM Racing STM Tuned
Top