cant seem to get my manual boost controller working properly??

[nickbuilt]

i have a hallman pro boost controller i have it hooked up exactly the way it supposed to be vacuum source it directly off the intake mani and the other side goes to the wastegate and no matter how many times i twist the knob the boost will never raise more than 11psi i am running it on a stock 14b turbo with an ets intercooler kit someone please help!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

-nick

 

[pmp285]

have you tried interchanging the vacuum lines connetd to the mbc? or maybe mbc stuck up

 

[4thStroke]

If he reverses the lines then it will equate to running no boost control at all.

Don't do that.

Take apart the controller and clean it out. Make sure the ball and springs are in good shape/existent.

 

[nickbuilt]

cool i will take it apart tomorrow and check that out i wonder if hallman pro billet aluminum boost controller has any warranty on it???

-nick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[4thStroke]

Is it new?

 

[ktmrider]

Seen multiple views on using a vacuum vs pressure source. The WG and MBC diaphrams sometimes don't like seeing vacuum. So I would do as suggested, check the ball/spring to make sure it's working properly.
I will tell you this, using a vacuum source caused funky boost control like you are seeing with my Hallman. Switched to the "OEM" nipple on the J-pipe, all was better.
Side note, there is another nipple on the BOV tube that I prefer as it is post IC and gets a better boost signal IMO ( due to pressure drop across the IC ).

 

[broxma]

I have a hallman pro cockpit style MBC on my evo. I have the signal source coming from the turbo outlet pipe. As already said, it's a matter of opening it up and finding the problem.

/brox

 

[Muskrat]

Quoting ktmrider:
Side note, there is another nipple on the BOV tube that I prefer as it is post IC and gets a better boost signal IMO ( due to pressure drop across the IC ).



It doesn't metter where you pick up your boost signal for the wastegate (except for response time, and to optimize that you want free flowing tubing (~1/4") with short routing). You're setting the boost controller based on where you're monitering boost (should be at the manifold). You set the mbc so you see your target boost where your monitering it. This already takes into account any presssure drop. The only difference is how much you need to turn in the boost controller.

 

[broxma]

^ This is pretty much accurate. You could in theory get a signal from a different car or emulate it from load for what it's worth, as long as the pressure curve was linear in relation to the original. I went off the turbo outlet because the Evo outlet has a good size nipple thing and the entire line only runs about 2-3 feet. The length of the line though, honestly, not that big of a deal. The turbo at 400 CFM is going to fill that line instantly regardless of if it is 2 feet or 10. The change in pressure through the entire line will be imperceptible from instant to anything but the best timing computer in the galaxy. I have tested this hypothesis and have moved on to call it a theory at this point, if you're into the whole brevity thing. And don't get me started on IC pipes.

/brox

 

[ktmrider]

LOL, I agree with both however Muskrat you say "doesn't metter where you get the WG signal from" then "should be from the manifold" which contradict each other.

Just saying, the WG was GENERALLY designed not to see vacuum. I can't comment on the diaphram being plyable both in a concave and convex shape but I can comment on how much trouble I had controlling boost and WG response time when on a vacuum source point ( my case using the BOV line ).

I mentioned the J-pipe vs BOV source nipple as being after the single largest restriction in the non-vacuum area of the intake system. It's also closer to the target signal spot, ie the manifold. So as long as you are monitoring boost pressure at the IM like mentioned you just adjust the MBC to get your target boost level.

Again like I mentioned in my first post you are gonna find arguments for either source point. So argue away folks!

 

[broxma]

He's saying base the adjustment of the controller from where you monitor(Manifold, "should be monitoring it there"). This goes back to my 'as long as it is linear' analogy.

I've never heard this WG-no-vacuum concept before. I've cut a WG apart before and nothing internal to it gave me the impression that it was not meant to experience both.

/brox

 

[Muskrat]

Quoting ktmrider:
LOL, I agree with both however Muskrat you say "doesn't metter where you get the WG signal from" then "should be from the manifold" which contradict each other.



These are two different things. The "doesn't matter" is for your WASTEGATE signal. The "intake manifold" is for your GAUGE signal.

Quote:

Just saying, the WG was GENERALLY designed not to see vacuum. I can't comment on the diaphram being plyable both in a concave and convex shape but I can comment on how much trouble I had controlling boost and WG response time when on a vacuum source point ( my case using the BOV line )




No matter where you plumb in your source for the wastegate it will see vacuum unless your boost controller seals perfectly, which it wont. FWIW I T my MBC off the BOV and have no issues controlling boost.

Quote:

I mentioned the J-pipe vs BOV source nipple as being after the single largest restriction in the non-vacuum area of the intake system. It's also closer to the target signal spot, ie the manifold. So as long as you are monitoring boost pressure at the IM like mentioned you just adjust the MBC to get your target boost level.



My point is it doesn't matter. Plumb it where ever you like. You shouldn't see any difference if it's plumbed off the BOV, the J-pipe or the IM. If you are, it's probably something else, like the tubing being too small for the length (was my issue, causing a 3 psi spike @ 15psi). Issues like that will be exaserbated by higher boost pressures.

 

[ktmrider]

Ah yep, I mis-read the comment on source vs boost measurement.

The use of a ball-and-spring MBC "could" be affected by exposing it to vacuum, I just mentioned a possibilty to the OP about why he was having problems based on a similar experience ( and public forum debate at the time on IM vs pre-TB source use ).

 

[1qkfwd]

You do not want to share the bov line and a manual boost controller. The boost controller has a bleed off so when it sees full pressure it starts needing of pressure on the line. The bov needs pressure to stay closed. Now that there is no pressure on the top side of the bov and the pressure is greater on the piping side. Now the bov prematurely relieves pressure. The signal should be as close to the turbo as possible. It has an affect on spool time. We were able to control some of our boost spike on this 16g car we are tuning by drilling the j-pipe right by the outlet. Ideally we wanted it on the compressor housing but didn't want to dig that deep. The vacuum doesn't hurt the wastgate.

Op you say your using the hallman pro, didn't it come with two springs?

 

[ercp98]

^Please someone confirm this statement. All the search I have done on this site have suggested that it is ok to share the BOV and MBC signal. By this I mean, it has been suggested here that the MBC can be connected to the BOV line from the intake manifold by a T fitting. This has been the way I have my MBC connected. Thanks for any clarification.

As for the original poster, have you done a boost leak? I have the same symptoms as of now. Again from the search I have done here, this symptom (not boosting past 11psi) is caused by a boost leak. I have not confirmed my problems since I am still in the process of making a leak tester.

 

[1qkfwd]

My confirmation is 9 years of mitsu performance experiance. Go check out dsmtuners I'm sure you will find what your looking for.

 

[Muskrat]

He has a point, if your MBC has a bleeder (most do) you probably don't want to plumb it into the BOV line. Mine does not, I've been meaning to experiment with adding one, to see if I see any noticable difference in the transient response of the turbo.

Quote:
The signal should be as close to the turbo as possible. It has an affect on spool time.



How exactly does it affect spool time?

The only effect I can see is in delayed wastegate response causing boost spikes. Which would help you spool quicker due to the wastegate not opening as fast, but you don't want this to happen anyway. The only way to increase spool through boost control is to cut off the pressure source to the wastegate until you reach the boost level you want (aka wastegate stays closed until you reach target boost), then allow it through (compensating for response time to avoid boost spikes.)

So I guess my question really is: how does having the boost source as close to the turbo as possible affect spool time?

Also, I feel like this thread sort of got hi-jacked. Sorry OP! Report back after you've confirmed the mbc is operating correctly, and a boost leak check is always a good idea!

 

[1qkfwd]

The anwser is in my head so bare with me if its a poor explination. The way to get quickest spool is as you said, hold the wastegate shut until desired boost is hit and then open the wastegate. When you have the pressure source as close to the compressor wheel as possible, the wastgate will see any change in boost right away with no delays. So in turn it will open faster, then start to flutter at the boost choosen. If you have the main source say at the intake manifold, there is going to be a delayed reaction when the wastegate sees full pressure until the intercooler pipes fill and desired boost is hit. So now the wastegate is seeing some pressure as this fill up happens and it starts to open slightly. Whats that do? Allows some of the exhaust gas to exit the wastegate instead of of going through the turbine. Then you get that small delay in spool. Some setups you may not even notice the change. Im a believer that all the small things add up.

Im sure this is good info for the OP. Not quite a hijack. And I was under the impression all manual boost controllers were a bleed off style??

 

[Muskrat]

Quote:

So now the wastegate is seeing some pressure as this fill up happens and it starts to open slightly



This occurs no matter where the pressure source is. In fact, it'll start opening earlier with a closer boost source, because there isn't that delay in response. As pressure rises in the intake system, it also rises in the wastegate source line, opening the wastegate. The only real benefit of a short route boost source is preventing boost spikes.

If you wanted to get real nit picky you'd want the longest/smalest diameter source line that didn't give you boost spikes. But the gains of figuring that out isn't worth the effort.

Quote:
And I was under the impression all manual bosot controllers were a bleed off style??



The one in this car doesn't have a vent. I have no idea who made it, or any info on it, as it came with the car. Might be a home depot racing one. Really the vent (on a ball and spring style, not a bleeder style) is to exhaust the wastegate line so that the wastegate closes when boost is taken away. Since the ball and spring doesn't perfectly seal this still happens without the vent. My understanding is boost response between shifts will suffer, but I haven't noticed anything bad (only running stock or 15 psi right now). I'm planning to experiment with different vent sizes drilled into a vacuum coupler, but haven't done it yet.

 

[1qkfwd]

The affect on spool is minimal. You can see it in all the logs that I have reviewed. Ive even toyed around with the stock BCS, I played with line lengths and different size restricters on the bleed off side. The best I could get was a one maybe two lb spike at 19 lbs with changing line sizes and lengths. I was able to get upwards of a 24 lb spike, but it would drop down a lot more.

As for the vent or bleed off on boost controllers, as far as I knew all mbcs have some sort of bleed off or as you say exhaust. My hallman has a small pin hole right on the vacuum barb where you would normally put a wrench to take the fitting off. The bleed port will be on the wastegate side of the mbc. Without it there would be no way to relieve pressure of the wastegate. I would be interested to see your mbcas its a first ive heard of a mbc without a bleed port.