FP3582HTA

[makedollarz]

Can anyone help me figure out what type of fuel setup i'll need to run this turbo with E85? ECM link, 1600cc inj., and not sure about the fuel pump?, I have the 255 Wally but Im not sure if thats enough...

Thanks

 

[Muskrat]

What's your target horsepower? and boost pressure.

 

[makedollarz]

550-600hp, 30-32psi. Somewhere around that neighborhood. Currently I have a FP Green at set at 28-29psi, and 1150's, and using E85, but I think Im ready for more power, rest of the engine is build too stroker, valves, springs, cams etc, so I think the engine should be fine.

 

[Muskrat]

Based on my calculations and estimates you'd need about 1660 cc/min at 100% injector duty cycle. So plan for something like 2000 cc injectors. This is targeting 650 bhp (so 550-600 whp, I'm guessing). You'd need to flow about 1000 cfm, which would put you at about 35 psi MAP. Keep in mind I have a lot of estimates in my calculations(BSFC = .55, AFR = 11.5 [did my calc based on pump gas and then compensated for the difference in e85 when doing the injector calc], IAT = 130*F, Peak VE = .95).

At 32.5 psi MAP (assuming you're running stock base fuel pressure of 37.5) an in-tank HP Walboro 255 will provide 231 LPH according to AMS. That max injector that can support is 960 cc/min (4) at 100% duty cycle. So it'll be a bit less for your target. Adding an in-line 255 might get you there. I didn't run the numbers. (most of this was based off an excel chart I already had set up. Otherwise I wasn't going to do all that work for you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

I highly suggest you do some research on your own for how to figure this stuff out, instead of just trusting what someone on a forum says. Garrett has a good primer on turbo technology and how to do some basic calculations on their web site.

Here's the fuel pump flow chart:

 

[Brianawd]

click

 

The FIC 2150 are great and they idle much better than 1600's. You just can't run Q or import through them. As for the fuel pump just run a twin 255 set up. I have seen the twin 255 pump set up make over 700 whp with E85 on a mustang dyno.

 

[SleepinGVR4]

The problem with dual pumps is that they fight each other. The best way would be to run them inline.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Well, using a y-fitting helps with the pumps "fighting" one another, and PLENTY of guys run dual Walbro's with no problems.

 

last motor we built that had a little over 700whp had two 255lph pumps inline, FIC 1600cc injectors, and a larger return line and fuel pressure regulator. with the stock regulator and line the fuel pressure can run up to 56psi or better.

 

[Muskrat]

^ Was that running E85?

 

click

 

As for the twins fighting themselves like stated before just run a y block. Series is a bad idea you can run higher psi but lose the volume you are looking for with E-85.

 

[4thStroke]

Inline pumps aren't a bad idea, they just don't flow the same volume (as you mentioned).

I know of a car that ran out of fuel pump well before 700awhp on a 3065 running 2 inline 255s on E85.

I would think that running two lines separately to the fuel rail and have them Y-together there would keep most of the pump vs. pump fight at bay and deliver the most volume possible. A larger rail would only aid this as long as there wasn't a large neck down/restriction.

You also run into the issue of where to pull fuel from the tank with the 2nd pump. I'm not sure if the DSM twin hanger will clear the GVR4 tank. If you have the ability to modify the stock hanger, that's probably your bet.

Pulling fuel from the drain is another option, but without a baffle of some sort, the DSM guys have ran into pickup problems leading to sputtering/lean conditions.

 

[Rausch]

Ok, for starters, fluid dynamics/hydraulics > me.

But: Quote:
I would think that running two lines separately to the fuel rail and have them Y-together there would keep most of the pump vs. pump fight at bay and deliver the most volume possible.

I *think* this would net the same results, as the pressures are the same at any point in each line. Moving the place where they connect most likely won't lessen the 'battle of the fuel pumps'.

Given that though, I think that running individual lines from two pumps to either side of the rail, with an exit to the FPR in the center may minimize the balancing act. Although just running a significantly bigger pump all together would be far simpler and probably just as cost effective. But again fluid dynamics/hydraulics> me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[curtis]

If you have two matching pumps and both see the exact voltage teh flow will be the same but there never exact and one will flow a little more than the other. I stuffed two 155's in the tank of my mustang back in like 94 95 and was pushing the heavy bitch into the parking lot in the rain when the check valve in one popped. Lasted like a month of street driving. Run a 255 to a surge tank or just to a -044 bosch but a surge tank is good insurance.

 

[4thStroke]

You are probably right, Rausch, I was mostly speculating.

curtis, I see what you are saying, but many people have successfully ran the parallel 255s.

twin 155s... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[Muskrat]

Quoting Rausch:
Ok, for starters, fluid dynamics/hydraulics > me.



ib4b (In before Barnes) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Barnes]

Sweet! I have my own acronym! : )

In principle both work fine. In parallel the pump only needs to flow half as much as a single pump. In series the pump flows the same, but the second pump bumps the pressure as the single pump trails off at higher flows.

As far as pumps fighting each other, I don't really know enough to comment on that. I don't see how pumps in parallel would cause a problem, but I haven't thought about it much.

 

We have never had a problem with the pumps burning up in our twin pump set up.( I work at APM Racing) . On a car we recently did with a Borg Warner S366 on E85 we ran out of fuel around 450 whp(dynojet) with a single 255. With the twin pump the car was able to run 39 psi and make 700whp with out any fuel issues. You don't need as great of fuel usage as you think with E85. When it first came out everyone said you needed 30% more fuel but honestly you don't since you can lean out the mixture greater with E-85 compared to 93 octane. I have seen close to 13 0 on an Evo at 30 psi with zero knock. With our set up we use 2 modified walbro 255, -6 yblock and lines, and a hobbs switch so unless you are under boost only one pump is on.

 

[Muskrat]

To clairify, pumps in series means the flow will drop off less as pressure increases.

If you flow tested a single 255 vs two 255's in series at very low pressures they would flow about the same.

That's why the flow chart for the 255 in series is higher then a single 255, but it also keeps flow more constant from 40-100 psi.

Quote:
With our set up we use 2 modified walbro 255, -6 yblock and lines, and a hobbs switch so unless you are under boost only one pump is on.



This helps pump longevity, I'm sure. also, is this a street driven vehicle? DD? Use also determines what's appropriate. The fact of the matter is running pumps in paralell will work the pump harder, and will affect pump life. I'm not saying it's going to burn up in 30 days, but it will have an effect. In a race car that's towed everywhere it's probably not an issue though. My $.02