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Brakes constantly binding, fronts only

Both of the front calipers are constantly binding. This started happening about 2 weeks ago, and I've been limited to in-town driving no faster than 35-40mph or else the rotors heat up too much and expand, which REALLY bogs the car down /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif. I first noticed the binding when rolling to a stop without touching the pedal. The car would dive and then settle a bit too hard for a rolling, brake-free stop. After a trip of any distance longer than half a mile, the front rotors will be too hot to touch, and popping sounds can be heard.

While trying to diagnose the problem I applied the brakes very hard while stopped, released the pedal and attempted to pull forward. The brakes remained tightly bound and it was difficult to cruise at over 30mph. 3rd gear was useless. After a mile of driving, and then letting it sit awhile and cool off, the binding was less noticeable. Im unsure if its simply pad wear which has increased the clearance (or rather decreased interference) or if the pads had been able to actually release a bit.

I'm reasonably certain that the problem is limited to something preventing the pads from retracting from contact with the rotors. Theres is no soft pedal feel, the reservoir has been full and there is no sign of a fluid leak. The rear calipers are staying clear.

It seems unlikely that both calipers would seize at the same time, so I'm guessing something with the master cylinder or the proportioning valve? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
 

supersp0rt2

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Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
66
Location
Plainfield, IL
The first thing I would look at here would be your brake lines. If they're your basic rubber lines and have ever been pinched or kinked they could be acting like a one way check valve preventing fluid from returning to the reservior. Also possibly using the wrong fluid or letting it go too long could swell the hoses on the inside and create the same condition. If its fine after sitting for a while but acts up after driving for a bit this is most likely your problem.
 

RayH

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Apr 9, 2001
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2,703
Location
NJ
When I had something similar happen a while back it was a seizing caliper piston. I found a tear in the piston boot which allowed moisture to corrode the piston wall and it would hang up on the seal and not retract when letting off the pedal pressure. You can either rebuild it with new pistons and seal kit or get a remanufactured caliper. I rebuilt mine but a remanufactured caliper saves a lot of hassle and mess.

Another possibility is the calipers hanging up from lack of lubrication on the guide pins.
 

curtis

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May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Vote for pins. The grease is probably cooked from heat and causing this. Rebuild them front and rear and flush all the lines. All you need is a brake cylinder hone, there like 15 bucks at autozone, 4 to 6 cans of brake parts cleaner and time. Flush the lines first so when the new rebuilt unit goes back on it doesn't get filled with old fluid.
 

ktmrider

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Sep 10, 2007
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3,128
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Tempe, AZ
Pins or caliper pistons like mentioned.
Toybreaker told me the stock pistons are notorious for corroding and sticking. Better ( and nearly cheaper ) to buy reman units from the local auto parts stores than rebuild.
If it were the pins I would think the bind would only occur on the outboard pad since the pistons ( if good ) would retract the inboard one.
 

gtluke

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Sep 16, 2001
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4,210
Location
dirty jersey
our front pins are really good, so it's probably the caliper. i changed one of mine on saturday because it was sticking. factory original at 262k though.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
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Apr 30, 2006
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3,581
Quoting ktmrider:
Pins or caliper pistons like mentioned.
Toybreaker told me the stock pistons are notorious for corroding and sticking. Better ( and nearly cheaper ) to buy reman units from the local auto parts stores than rebuild.
If it were the pins I would think the bind would only occur on the outboard pad since the pistons ( if good ) would retract the inboard one.



It's about changing the fluid...

Nobody seems to do preventative maintainance anymore. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, and will absorb water over time. That water will settle in at the low points, which happens to be the calipers.

Over time, the caliper bores will corrode and pit. In severe cases, the pistons will also corrode, and then that's that.

It's worth noting that the cheesmo parts store rebuilds are using cores that were removed from service for a reason. It's fairly rare that you get a nice set, and many times you are better off rebuilding your own original cores. (Most people only replace the calipers after they are so bad they are non-functional, and those are the cores they re rebuilding...)


At the least, it's worth opening yours up to see what the failure is. About half the time on these cars it actually deteriorated hose material that's been trapped between the piston and the bore that's the problem.

edit, in the o.p's case, I would sh*t can everything, including the rotors. If you drove the thing with dragging brakes, you've done ruinated everything brake related on both those corners.

The caliper service/seal kits are still available from the dealer, and it's an easy afternoon job to re-new everything to factory specs.

Getting the brakes up to spec is of those jobs that *should* be done before hanging a ginormous turbo or any other upgrades on the car. If you can't push the pistons back in with your thumbs during a pad swap, it's time to service the calipers.

While you have the system apart, be sure to check the brake hoses, especially those in the rear. They are another important detail that many people overlook untill it's too late.
 
Last edited:

656of1000

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Jan 18, 2005
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292
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Phoenixville, PA
I couldn't agree more, toybreaker. Although to add... Flushing the brake fluid is now extra important, not only because it is hydroscopic, but because I'm sure you boiled it when the front brakes overheated. Once brake fluid boils, it is essentially worthless, and needs to be replaced. Besides, all that boiling creates gas, and gas is a hydraulic systems worst enemy.

I have personally seen your symptoms many times, and all things mentioned proir have been at one time the culprit. As someone mentioned, I'd say its time to completely redo your front brakes. Try finding calipers that come with the caliper bridges. This will insure that the slider pins are new and thoroughly greased.

Another probable cause for your problem are the front brake hoses. If, after 200k plus miles, your brakes and suspension have been apart, those hoses probably endured a lot of stresses from being moved around and stretched. Additionally, old brake fluid, after it has begun to break down, will start to deteriorate the insides of the hoses, causing further weakness. So with all of those possible factors, the chance you have collapsed hoses are good. Now is a very good time to upgrade to stainless steel hoses all the way around, and thoroughly flush the brakes. Make sure you follow the proper bleed sequence, or you could introduce air into the system. I believe the sequence is RR, LF, LR, RF. Someone else should chime in here and double check that is right. Even if the hoses aren't the cause, it's still a very worthwhile upgrade.
 

Bimmubishi

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Jul 15, 2003
Messages
5,702
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I think it's a brake booster issue. Disconnect the booster by pinching off the line to it and drive the car. The pedal will have no assist!!! It will be hard to brake without pressing the pedal hard but you will know right away if the problem is with the booster.

If it is it could be..

Maladjusted master cylinder rod (ie: turned in too far)

defective one way valve
defective booster (in that order)
 

1990ggsxnj

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Nov 21, 2008
Messages
525
Location
Blackwood, NJ
I've also been curious of the sequence as I have been wanting to replace all front components when I saw white gunk in my master cylinder. Will the ABS pose a problem? I know of a couple cars that need to have the valve body set to bleed/diagnostic mode first. I have a manual for the non-turbo fwd galant but have yet to grab the vr4 manual.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
DialCaliper posted a brake bias/knee point chart a few brake threads back, and if I recollect correctly, the rears don't see pressure untill the fronts are already doing some work. This means just a little restriction somewhere in the system could cause only the fronts to drag if the residual pressure is under the threshold of where the rears see pressure


With the pedal up, cracking the bleeders open on the calipers when the brakes are hot and binding will tell the tale.

If you don't get fluid out the bleeder, it's very likely an issue with the calipers. (Sticking sliders, or junked up/corroded pistons, and the like)

If you get fluid out the bleeder with the pedal up, you can go to the master and crack the lines there, (using a 10mm flare wrench.) If you get pressure relief there, the problem very likely involves the booster/linkage adjustment or the master cylinder itself.

When the master cylinder piston doesn't retun all the way to it's internal stop due to a misadjustment/internal booster problem/or linkage issue, the thermal compensating port in the master won't be uncovered. This port, (located just past the tip of the seal with the master cylinder piston at rest) allows the system to vent all the fluid back into the reservoir when the pedal is released. It also allows for thermal expansion of the fluid. If the port is blocked, the brakes *may* "appear" to apply and release normally when checking it in the shop cold, but as the fluid heats up and expands, the trapped and expanding fluid will progressively apply the brakes harder and harder. As the pads fade, it might be difficult to tell they are being apllied ever harder by the trapped pressure.

Discharge/pressure at the caliper and not at the master suggests something gone awry between the two units, as something is not allowing for the fluid to return to the master cylinder reservoir.

A little time with the line wrench should find the problem. You'll need to put the system back in "bind" mode, so a short drive may be required between tests... (carefull, it shouldn't take very far or fast to build some heat up, so easy does it!

The prop valve would be another easy place to check. Crack the inlet line (master side) to the proportioning valve, and see what comes out there. No pressure relief/fluid flow there would suggest you test the prop valve a little further. Cracking the line at the outlet (caliper side) of the prop valve would finish telling that tale. Pressure on the outty,(caliper side) but not the inny (master side) of the prop valve suggest a blockage or an internal issue inside the prop valve.

Just continue breaking the system down into short lengths, checking for fluid/pressure relief in beween the segments, and you will find the problem.

Remember that brake fluid will soften/remove paint, so wipe any and all spills promptly!


Quoting 656of1000:
Another probable cause for your problem are the front brake hoses. If, after 200k plus miles, your brakes and suspension have been apart, those hoses probably endured a lot of stresses from being moved around and stretched. Additionally, old brake fluid, after it has begun to break down, will start to deteriorate the insides of the hoses, causing further weakness. So with all of those possible factors, the chance you have collapsed hoses are good.



^^Nice post!

Pressure at the caliper, and not at the outty of the prop valve points to a problem with some kind of blockage in the lines/hoses. To have both front hose sets deteriorate to the level where it could cause this problem is very unlikely but, at this point, who knows. I've seen flat rate line tech's f*** up both hoses and even hardlines before, trying to do a 3o second pad swap, so I know it can be done. ( not supporting the calipers during a pad swap and then damaging the hoses at the fittings by bungy jumping them off the knuckle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif ) One thing that makes this unlikely is that the usual symptom of hard line/hose issues is there would be a delay in building pressure, and then it will slowly release. The usual complaint when there's a hose restriction is a pull away from the bad corner when the brake is applied, and then a pull towards it when the brake is released. This occurs because the pressure is delayed getting there compared to the other corners, and then slower to leave when the pedal is released. To have both sides affected at the same time is unlikely, but then again so is having both front brakes binding at the same time...

It's also possible to get a one flapper effect inside the hoses at the fittings, but that's extremely rare, and to have both hoses manifest this problem at the same time is very unlikley

Quoting Bimmubishi:
I think it's a brake booster issue.



Your point of the push rod or pedal being out of adjustment has some serious merit.


About the only thing I can add to Alex's list of things to check is that the pedal is returning to the "up" stop. Slop/wear or binding in the linkage could cause some problems with the linkage returning all the way. Pulling the pin on the pedal where it attaches to the linkage would be a quick way to check for adjustment issues.

In addition to the tests Alex listed, a good fuctional test of the booster system operation is to pump the booster down with the engine off, and then recharge the system with vacuum. This verifies that vacuum is being apllied to and released from the booster correctly.

With the engine off, applying the brakes ten times or so should bleed all the residual vacuum from the system. The pedal should get progressively harder to push, and will rise on each stroke untill all the vacuum has been released.

Then while holding the pedal down, start the engine.

The pedal should drop substantially, showing the effect of the vacuum assist.

This test will help verify the correct operation of the booster diaphragm, check valve and vacuum release systems.

If the pedal doesn't change, the check valve may be faulty, or there may be something wanky in the release of vacuum from the booster.

edit The only other thing I can think of is that the master cylinder leaked enough fluid out the back over time that it somehow filled the booster enough to liquid lock the diaphragm... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Needless to say it is very dangerous to drive the car with the brakes malfunctioning, so it's best to get to the bottom of this sooner, rather than later.

Akuma, I pm'ed you my phone number if you want to ask any additional questions.

Good luck troubleshooting this issue, and please update the thread with what you find.
 

All helpful posts, thanks very much, especially toybreaker. Ill have to take a little time to acquaint myself with the workings of the brake system before I dive into this. As soon as I do, I will post on what I'm finding out to make this a worthwhile search thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 

Well, it turns out the cylinders on both of the front calpiers had rusted frozen. Kind of wierd for both to go out at the same time. I never looked at them too hard, I just ordered some rebuilt units from O'Reillys and traded in the cores because I was in a hurry to get out of town. Kind of an anticlimactic ending.

Side note: the dealer wanted to charge $180 for new units because "no on else carries then but our supplier. We checked." The remans were less than $80 AND they shipped 2 days faster than the dealer quoted. Big surprise.

EDIT If anyone is curious, the calipers were most likely the factory originals. The car had ~165,000 miles and I dont think theyve been replaced since at least 1993. I regret that i didnt have the means to rebuild the calipers myself. I just didnt really have the means at the time so heres hoping the remans hold out for awhile.
 
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381gvr4

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Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
568
Location
Wakefield, RI/Meriden, CT
Awesome to here she's all better. Welcome to the site BTW...... John to the rescue!!!

See what happens when no0bs are nice?? Their cars get fixed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif
 
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