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Rich Knock...check my logs PLEASE!

JSchleim18

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
4,801
Location
Long Island, NY
Getting rich knock counts as high as 25 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif. I am running around 22 lbs of boost with a base timing of 6*. Mods that matter:

Buschur Racing 20G turbo
Denso 660's
KD stage 3 chip set for my mods
Evo MAS
SAFC II
BPR7ES plugs gapped .028
MMcD

2nd gear WOT before knock:
RPM: 4781 TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 67.9% WBO2: 10.0 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 0 TIMA: 13*
02-R: 0.85v INJP: 17.1ms
FTRL: 138% MAFS: 1442 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 117%

2nd Gear WOT 11 counts of knock:
RPM: 5875 TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 89.0% WBO2: 10.0 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 11 TIMA: 16*
02-R: 0.83v INJP: 18.1ms
FTRL: 138% MAFS: 1868 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 117%

3rd gear WOT 5 counts of knock:
RPM: 5343 TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 75.0% WBO2: 10.1 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 5 TIMA: 12*
02-R: 0.83v INJP: 16.8ms
FTRL: 138% MAFS: 1656 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 117%

3rd gear WOT 25 counts of knock:
RPM: 6312 TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 95.3% WBO2: 9.9 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 25 TIMA: 11*
02-R: 0.83v INJP: 18.1ms
FTRL: 138% MAFS: 1982 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 117%

If you need anymore info PLEASE let me know. I truly appreciate the help!!!

Thanks
 
Last edited:

1990ggsxnj

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Nov 21, 2008
Messages
525
Location
Blackwood, NJ
Hmm...I'm not an expert here but I'm seeing INJD increasing.... Injector Duty? That's a bit high over 80%, no? Couldn't that be contributing?
 
Last edited:

JSchleim18

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Long Island, NY
Happy birthday for one...2 I think it's contributing to the rich factor. When it's that high of an Injector duty cycle, the injector is staying open a lot longer and dumping fuel into the motor making it rich and hard to lean out.

I think I'm in need of 720s but I heard 660's are good for what I want to accomplish (about 375 whp)
 

JSchleim18

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Long Island, NY
My mechanic/tuner said it'd be a good idea. Now he wants to lower it back to 5* lol.

Speakin of which, you still got them 720's for sale?
 

atc250r

Staff member
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Sep 11, 2003
Messages
13,235
Location
Orange County, NY
Personally I would NEVER run the timing higher than stock on pump gas, the timing maps in these cars are too aggressive as it is. If anything, I'd run it at 3 or 4 degrees instead. Back it down a little and see what happens. This might be a stupid question but if its rich then why don't you just pull some fuel with the SAFC? Also, you might want to tighten up the plug gap a little. If I remember right stock is .028" and if it is I'd try going down to .024" just to see if it helps.

John
 
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JSchleim18

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Long Island, NY
I'll pull more fuel out of the AFC and turn the base timing down when I get over there again. I don't have the right tool for the COP setup
 

atc250r

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Orange County, NY
Do you have a stock coil set up? It only takes 5 minutes to switch it over.
 

JSchleim18

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Long Island, NY
Unfortunately not at the moment. I have it in my GGS-X which I should just take out tomorrow.
 

prove_it

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Jul 3, 2008
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Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Not positive about this, but I do remember reading about NGK plugs and there was a post about them. Someone here also posted about this. I maybe wrong, but I thought the R7ES plugs are for a big gap and the r7 plugs are for tighter gaps.

Also I do hate to tell you this, but richer mixtures generally suppress knock, like a wet blanket on a fire. I'm fighting a knock issue with 1286. Brand new engine, polished chambers, V3 control, running rich. One thing I did find was that when I set the base timing I referenced the crank marks. Normal way, right? Well I was showing a little knock, nothing big just a bit, so I thought I'd re time the engine since nothing made sense.
Same results.
I decided to do it again, but instead of using the crank for reference, I used the cams.
Check your base timing doing this. I found that I was actually 2 degrees advanced. From the only angle I could see the crank it looked dead one, but in reality I was off.
Otherwise, the sensor could be junk, or your wiring is bad.
Double check, base timing is critical.
 

prove_it

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Jul 3, 2008
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Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Quoting JSchleim18:
I'll pull more fuel out of the AFC and turn the base timing down when I get over there again. I don't have the right tool for the COP setup




Oh yea, when you pull fuel using an AFC you better be aware that the ecu will add ignition advance.
Yea, not a good idea right now.
All the AFC does is "fool" the ecu into thinking there is less airflow into the engine. When you do this you end up changing the load factor down which does lean it out, but it will also run higher timing.

In other words, pulling fuel will add timing and your ecu already doesn't want more timing, it wants less.
 

JSchleim18

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Oct 16, 2006
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Location
Long Island, NY
I went out tonight and turned the boost down to 19 which isn't going to cure my problem at 22 but a little safer on the motor. I also zero'd out the AFC on my high throttle settings and did a WOT run. I also noticed my fuel trims are reading lean meanwhile my wideband is showing rich??? Why is it doing that?

So would we recommend a base timing of 5* or go lower?

Here's the logs at 19 lbs.

2nd gear 0 counts of knock:
RPM: 4406
TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 52.3%
WBO2: 10.1 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 0
TIMA: 15*
02-R: 0.87v
INJP: 14.3ms
FTRL: 119%
MAFS: 1140 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 115%

2nd gear 9 counts of knock:
RPM: 5937
TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 75.7%
WBO2: 10.7 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 9
TIMA: 16*
02-R: 0.83v
INJP: 15.3ms
FTRL: 119%
MAFS: 1668 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 115%

2nd gear 16 counts of knock:
RPM: 6562
TPS: 99.6% (needs adjustment)
INJD: 79.6%
WBO2: 10.5 afr (reads .5 richer than AEM Gauge)
KNCK: 16
TIMA: 15*
02-R: 0.82v
INJP: 14.5ms
FTRL: 119%
MAFS: 1718 Hz
FTRM: 106%
FTRH: 115%
 

DarkDevilMMM

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Jun 8, 2001
Messages
4,065
Location
Vacaville, CA
why did you say that's rich knock? your WBO2 reads 10.5-10.7 and you said that's 0.5 richer then AEM gauge, so that means, your AEM reads 11-11.2? so in average, you are running around 11, isn't that a good WBO2 readout at WOT?

Also fuel trim numbers are for close loop(cruise), not open loop(WOT) so that has nothing to do with your WOT run.
 

toybreaker

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Apr 30, 2006
Messages
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Quoting prove_it:
Not positive about this, but I do remember reading about NGK plugs and there was a post about them. Someone here also posted about this. I maybe wrong, but I thought the R7ES plugs are for a big gap and the r7 plugs are for tighter gaps.





^^^ Not even close



The "e" part is about the thread reach. E = 19mm (no letter here means standard configuration. An 18mm plug has a 12mm reach, and a 14mm plug has a 9.5mm reach)

The "s" part is about the the firing end configuration. S = Standard configuration. (the ngk standard is a 2.6mm thick center electrode )

Extended gap plugs use an additional dash number, (like -11) to indicate a wider factory pre-set gap. In the case of -11, it's to indicate the factory pre-set gap is .044.
 

prove_it

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Jul 3, 2008
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Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Ah I see. Thanks for clearing up the plug issues.

To the original poster---

Rotate your MAF and see what happens. Get your base timing right.

Honestly, I think those are your problems. Our ignition maps are so advanced already and if you were pulling fuel that way then yea it's way too much.

It does look like your running in the 11's for fuel which is exactly where I would tune your car. It's not the best torque, but it's really safe without getting too thick.
 

I don't think it is "rich knock". Your rear O2 says .83 volts, which looks a little lean actually. I also see that all your fueltrims are high, indicating you are too lean overall. I would jack the base fuel pressure up 2 psi and see what the trims do.
And put the base timing back to 5*. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

JSchleim18

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Location
Long Island, NY
^^Will do thanks all! So the knock I am getting is normal knock?
 

Well, I really doubt its caused by being too rich. Its either too lean or too much timing advance for the octane and compression you are running, IMHO.
 

JSchleim18

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Oct 16, 2006
Messages
4,801
Location
Long Island, NY
I understand. It's a stock motor (7.8:1) on 93 octane (BP or Shell). I bumped up the fuel pressure to 40 psi and zero'd out my afc on the low settings this time around as well. FTRL was hanging around 98% and I haven't gotten around to messing with the FTRM and FTRH (palm died).

Another thing, I can't get the TPS to read 100% what so ever. The best it goes is 99.6%. That's with the TPS at idle reading 10.9%.
 
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