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Innovative LC1 feature

belize1334

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Nov 18, 2003
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3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
I was reading through the pdf manual for the LC1 and I came across a really cool feature. Looking around a bit it seems like this isn't unique to the LC1 (Zeitronix does it too) but Innovative seems to be the best company around so there you go.

Anyway, it goes like this. When programming the analog outputs you can set them up to reproduce the narrowband signal but you can actually shift the cross-over point to a different AFR. This means that if you want to run a lean-burn setup like the one that Jeff offers for his chip you can do so and still have closed-loop feedback.

Maybe EVERYONE already new this but I didn't and it's making me reconsider that lean-burn stuff.
 

CarRacer

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Jun 28, 2007
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Shakopee, MN
What is lean burn for the uninitiated? A fuel saving measure?
 

belize1334

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Joined
Nov 18, 2003
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3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
Lean burn is exactly that, a purposeful lean condition for fuel savings. It turns out that at low load levels you get more power out of a leaner mixture and you burn less fuel. The economy increases by slightly more than the percentage that you increase your AFR from stoich (14.7). At some point you risk engine damage but people have had good luck tuning in to the 16.5:1 range for cruising/idle. So you can scale the fuel map at low loads and have the AFR just drop quicker/farther as you start to dip into it. The problem is that on a narrow-band closed-loop ECU you saturate the o2 sensor and it's constantly fighting the tune. With an adjustable cross-over point you can recalibrate so that the closed-loop feedback is hunting for your new lean AFR instead of the old one.

As for Bozeman...meh. Montana is beautiful and there's a good PhD Physics program here so there you have it.
 

cheekychimp

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Apr 19, 2004
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7,333
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East Sussex, U.K.
But if you 'fix' the AFR at 16.5:1 isn't there a risk if you suddenly get on the gas after cruising. I thought part of the benefits of the lean burn chips were that there was code written in that allowed the car to switch back to a richer AFR if a load on the engine was detected. Surely this won't allow the vehicle ECU to do that, will it?
 

jepherz

Staff member
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
7,877
Location
KC, Missouri
Well, technically, closed loop is only followed when load is low. At any other cell in the map that is deemed necessary, it will switch to open loop and be using more fuel. In theory anyways... You can also just lock the car in closed loop and set the low load cells to a higher AFR. You'd have absolutely no o2 feedback in that case, though.
 

cheekychimp

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Apr 19, 2004
Messages
7,333
Location
East Sussex, U.K.
So we are assuming here that if we have some fuel control (AEM, DSMLink etc) that we can tune our vehicles fuelling as normal but that when we go into a low load or idle condition (when we would normally be at stoich), the wideband feedback (well narrowband technically) will limit us to 16.5:1?
 

jepherz

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Aug 8, 2004
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7,877
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KC, Missouri
I'm not sure exactly what belize is talking about and recalibrating the wideband, but the factory ecu is either using values off the fuel table, or in closed loop and shooting for 14.7 AFR using the narrowband. The bottom rows on the fuel table are never used, as you have to meet one of many qualifications to actually enter open loop mode. For example, if you assume that one of the parameters is a TPS of greater than 30%, you can actually change this TPS to 0%. At all times, then, you will be in open loop and using those bottom rows of the fuel map that normally you wouldn't be able to. If you tune those rows and set them to 16.5 AFR, your car will not be using o2 feedback at all and actually be shooting for 16.5 AFR.

I may be incorrect, but I believe this is what Keydiver's lean burn code is doing. He also provides a switch to turn this functionality, but I'm not exactly sure why. You'd have to ask him what the reasoning is behind being able to manually turn off lean burn. I'm sure he'd be more than willing to fill you in.
 

Dialcaliper

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Jun 22, 2007
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1,287
Location
Mountain View, CA
The stock ECU already has throttle rate enrichment and leaning out, so it shouldn't be an issue. When you romp on the throttle, it adds fuel based on how fast the TPS voltage changes to compensate for the time it takes air to get from the MAF to the TB. It does the opposite when you drop the throttle, to minimize backfiring due to fuel being dumped in after the throttle is closed. DSMlink doesn't really let you tune that parameter, but it doesn't seem to cause a problem. I don't know if Keydiver fiddles with it or not.

There is basically a range of AFR's that will ignite using a spark, and 16.5:1 is about the limit of spark initiated combustion for gasoline/air mixtures in an engine with compression as low as ours. Higher compression N/A motors (or using lower octane gasoline) can push it a little farther, but beyond about 17:1 or 18:1, the mixture will no longer ignite just using a spark, unless you use special tricks like "stratified charge" (like in various Hondas), where a small amount of rich mixture is ignited, which is then spread into the lean mixture in the cylinder. This only works under low load conditions, and low pressure/density in the cylinder. Mitsubishi has an engine that does the same thing, except that the intake valves are arranged to cause vortices, which concentrate more fuel in the center near the spark plug.

Higher loads and higher cylinder pressures/densities speed up the wave of ignition, until it approaches and exceeds the sound barrier, at which point you get a shockwave, and voila - detonation.

Beyond that, you are basically limited to compression ignition (and direct injection) as used in diesel engines (basically, intentionally causing self-ignition at high pressure and temperature), where AFR can be pushed up to 65:1 and beyond. The effect is basically dependent on how close the oxygen and gasoline molecules get to eachother (pressure and AFR can both accomplish this) and how energetic they are when they smash into each other (temperature). Basically, it's all about statistics, and how likely it is that the molecules will run into eachother and react, and whether others are close enough to cause a chain reaction.

I'm sure you all needed to know the science behind "deflagration" vs "detonation" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif

Basically, beyond 16.5:1, the spark plug cannot ignite the stuff in the cylinder. The leaner mixtures can create almost as much power as stoichiometric AFR's (14.7:1), about equivalent to the rich mixtures used under high load, but the mixture uses significantly more air (some of which is just used as an inert working fluid that absorbs heat and increases pressure, similar to injecting water or steam) and less fuel, resulting in better economy. Basically, it works because the extra air is free and fuel is not. If there were such a thing as "air economy", the lean mixtures would come out worse.
 
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belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
My understanding is that keydiver has a lean-burn code in his chip that you can request which pushes the AFR up a little over 16:1 at cruising conditions. The problem is that you can't be in closed loop for this because you're outside of the range of the narrowband. With an adjustable narrow-band cross-over point you should be able to get around that and have the closed loop mode offer feedback to the lean burn condition.
 

Luke

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Joined
Jul 16, 2002
Messages
752
Location
San Jose, CA
I have a Zeitronix wideband installed in my Galant, and I do use the simulated-narrowband feature extensively.
I have it wired to a switch, which picks a relay that chooses between the stock narrow-band O2 sensor output or the zt2 narrrowband-simulation output.
This gives me the ability to switch, on the fly, between 14.7 or 16.2 closed-loop AFR.

My homegrown logger program also has the ability to log ( or more accurately, calculate ) MPG. I can see my mileage improves by 5-10% with lean-burn enabled.
However, with HKS 264/272 cams, 16.2:1 afr would give me missfires at idle. And since I have this wired to a switch I can easily disable learn-burn at idle.

Additionally, I have also tried the ECU code modification to force the car into open loop pretty much all the time. This is then coupled with assigning a leaner-than-stoich afr in the low-load rows in the fuel map. This does not seem to work as well, because when the ECU is in open-loop, the EGR is also disabled. As you may know, EGR helps with fuel economy, so you don't get as much mileage improvement with the ecu code modification method.
 
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