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oh noes, another alignment thread! (help)

gtluke

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k so i have the mr bilsteins/springs on my car with the evo strut tops, i finally got around to getting my alignment tools on it after i put some miles on it so it could settle down if it needed to.
i haven't figured out toe yet, i'll do that this weekend, but for the hard part(to adjust) i have this roughly:

caster +3.75
camber -.5

is that too much caster? should i try and take a degree out?

-.5 camber sounds good to me, but i have the evo bolts that take another 1.5 out when reversed, so i was thinking about reversing them (which would put me at +1.0 probably) and then slotting the strut hat to get it back to 0 or so, so when i get to the track i can flip the bolts and be at -1.5

any of this sound crazy?
if it matters i have the small whiteline sway bar in the back, the active toe bullshit all welded up and poly bushings all in the rear.
 

gtluke

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oh crap
FRONT DESK, PLZ MOVE TO TECH SECTION I'M DUMB
 

kartorium

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to my knowledge you can't really have too much caster (within reason). On top of that, how do you intend on taking any out without replacing stuff?

-.5 isn't enough camber for any sort of aggressive driving. I would do like you were saying to make it possible to run -1.5 or else just always run -1.5. You won't really notice that much tire wear.
 

Rausch

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Dec 21, 2004
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Cleveland, OH
+1 Positive caster is nice. If you decide that the wheel returns to center after a turn too quick/harsh, or you feel there is too much steering effort while turning (power steering pretty much eliminates any sense of that) you can take a degree out. Outside of that, you should be cool.

-1.5 camber is not bad at all for the street. You won't get the most out of the tires in the corners, but, as stated, you should not see much wear at all either.
 

gtluke

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i planned on redrilling the strut mounds if i had to,
but it sounds like i can just slot them and push it in to get the 1.5 that i wanted. maybe i'll go for -1 now and -2.5 with the bolts flipped for autocross use?
is -2.5 and +3.75 going to be too much combined?
 

jepherz

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I wouldn't worry about the camber in terms of wear on the tire. I think it's a misconception that a large amount of camber causes a lot of wear to the tires; most all wear is caused by toe. With that being said, m3s I think run around 7degrees up front.

Are you concerned about the toe adjustment that will take place when you move the camber at the track? I'm not sure how much it would affect it, but when I aligned my car, my toe went WAY out of whack just from adjusting the camber plates.

I can't reason why anyone would want to slot their strut towers when camber plates are readily available. Seems like a hack solution.
 
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I agree with that^^. A couple degrees of neg camber will not cause severe tire wear, but more than a little toe will eat the tires in daily driving. Unfortunately, with our tie rods behind the wheel centerline, increasing neg camber will cause toe in which is not what you want for responsive turn in.

(Reason I say "unfortunately" is that apparently it is the other way around for Subarus. So they can have two camber+toe settings for street/track. By pushing in the top of the strut they get more neg camber and some toe out for autocross or track, and then pull the strut top back out for normal street alignment. Can't do that with our cars.)

Mike R.
 

gtluke

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Quote:

I can't reason why anyone would want to slot their strut towers when camber plates are readily available. Seems like a hack solution.



because i get the same EXACT result, without spending the money AND i can run the stock pillow mounts. the DSM caster camber plates are built upside down, f***ing the strut position. i'm not into it at all an i think the plates are hack. if i do caster camber plates i'm going to built my own, the correct way.
 

CP

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Aug 30, 2004
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Shoot for -2* in front and about -1.5* in the rear, with 0 toe all around. Your tires won't wear too badly with no toe.

I was under the impression that caster on the GVR4 was UNadjustable, and could only be changed with the WL caster bushings (which I've got). It made a small difference in steering feel.

Try not to hack up your shock towers if you can avoid it Luke.
 

gtluke

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i've only had to drill 2 holes so far, and they are totally round and exactly the size of the studs.
i'm going to slot them about an inch.
what i'd really like to do is cut the top of the strut tower completely off and weld a piece of slotted plate to the top. but i think i'd go with 2 pieces stacked so i can run factory strut mounnts and springs and have caster and camber adjustments.

when i drilled out my strut towers i was aiming for more caster, i didn't think i'd hit 3.75deg, actually i thought i was going to have less than stock because of the size of the evo strut tops and how they position in relation to dsm strut tops but apparently my guess got me damn close to what i wanted.

i absolutely do not want to run 3.5" springs and caster camber plates that mount under the strut tower.
if someone made a set like the ones i have on my mustang, i'd buy them right now, but i've never seen a set like that. with the car being 3" lower than stock, i can shim the top of the strut with the caster/camber plates so that the strut rides in the factory position so i still get the correct ride and valving. with the dsm setup, i'm lowering the car, AND lowering the strut mount point. not desirable in my eyes, i want my car to ride nice as its my and my girlfriend's daily driver.

here is what i have on my mustang. caster/camber adjustments,and adjustable strut mounting height.
i understand that there isn't this much room under the hood of a galant to do this, but i think there is a better solution than what is available now.
P1280057.JPG
 
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gtluke

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for reference to what i want to do to my strut towers, look at my friend skip's grm car (he sold his gvr4, kleckner)
img1114medium0ql.jpg
 

skivittlerjimb

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Jun 20, 2003
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Danville, CA
I like it, Luke. For those that compete in time trials and such, though, be aware that work like this often
counts as "changing suspension mounting points" and can move you from "Street Prepared" to "Prepared" classes,
or whatever the analogous class names are in your neighborhood. For those that only DD and 1/4 mile, I doubt this would be an issue. Just throwing it out there.

You raise good points about the limitations of camber/caster adjustments on DSMs and GVR4s in general, though.

-Jim B.
 

jepherz

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Quote:
the DSM caster camber plates are built upside down, f***ing the strut position.


Can you explain what you mean by this, Luke?
 

gtluke

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i just said it.
the existing caster camber plates mount under the strut tower, lowering the strut mounting point aka shortening your strut. lowering your car shortens your struts. so between the two your struts are now 3 inches compressed. putting your struts in a poor part of travel, AND giving them extra room to extend when getting on the gas, the front will lift more as the struts are mainly what gives you your max extension.

if someone made the caster camber plates that mount on top of the strut, you could potentially GAIN an inch or two, putting you closer to the correct strut stance on a lowered car.
 

jepherz

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I see what you mean. If you have upgraded coilovers meant for a lower stance, though, the strut position is no longer an issue. In addition to that, you'll have stiffer springs, so less travel should be expected.

Is this not correct? I see your point though when lowering a car with struts meant for a different ride height. However, I have to wonder how close these measurements are taken into account from the factory.
 

gtluke

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even with coilovers its the same thing, the moving part of the strut is pushed into the strut 3" further than designed at your neutral ride stance. the strut valving changes at different heights, so you aren't in the best strut position. even with coilovers your max extension is going to be past the maximum spring extension. look when you jack up the car, the spring is totally free in there and the strut is whats holding your tire in place.
 

iceman69510

Turn Right Racing
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I see Luke's point if you don't run coilovers though. But, I have not compared any measurements of top stock strut mount vs. using camber plates in their place.

I have Tein camber plates and a coilover conversion and I don't think that setup lowers strut position. It may raise it slightly.
 

gtluke

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if someone has both and could measure that it would be cool.
even if it doesn't move it down any more, it really should be moving it up as far as possible because face it, if you have coilovers and camber plates than your car is probably 2" lowered at least.
 
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