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Clean Sheet E-85 Fuel System

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
The shell is bare, and ready for assembly.

I figured I would start with the fuel system, as cleanly routing the lines requires front and rear subframe removal.

Fuel tank?
Anybody know if there is a fuel tank coating that is ethenol tolerant? The tank has some internal surface corrosion, and will need to be boiled/treated anyway. Anyone have any experience with treating the tank?

Fuel lines?
The factory hard lines are pretty corroded, and I would like to run a fresh set of hard lines. I considered braided stainless, but the routing would be less than optimal for the intended use of the vehicle. (Winter beater/snowmobile/spring mud bog runner, 9200ft in the mountains has it's downsides.) Aluminum hard line is available, as is stainless. Anyone ever run fresh hard lines? (I would really rather not run anything inside the vehicle, either, for obvious reasons) I will be running fresh lines for pressure, return, and the carbon canister. (Living at altitude requires an optimal tank venting system, so the evap system will stay on this build.)

Fuel pump?
Estimated power will be ~300awhp, so it's not going to have be a monster...E-85 will require more fuel, so figure ~550awhp (on gasoline) as the required feed volume, to leave some headroom. I freakin' hate loud pumps, so the whineboro pumps are NOT an option. I can do a two speed/fuel pump resistor set-up, to keep from overunning the regulator, if required, but I would really like to find an O.E. style in tank pump from a supra/300zxtt, etc...I would prefer an internal pump, and I will modify the pump bracket in the tank as required.

Fuel Pressure Regulator?
Something E-85 tolerant, and adjustable would do the job nicely.

Fuel Filter?
Preferably something that is servicable with a replacement cartridge/cleanable element?

Injectors?
Again, something ethonal tolerant, and sized for ~300awhp, on E-85.

I will do whatever it takes to make this work, and your constructive input is welcomed. Many of you have seen my posts on the board so you know I'm not completely stupid ( /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/wink.gif ), but I have zero experience tuning these cars for higher power levels. Adding E-85 in the mix just makes it that much more complicated to get things in the ball park. I will be running the evoIII turbo, and dsmlink as tuning aid, unless there's a better option?

I know E-85 is going to suck to get lit in the dead of winter, so I may fudge the mix with extra petrol in the coldest part of winter, but the primary goal is to run E-85 year round. I've been running an E-85 mix in my Toyota 4x4 for a couple of years now, and it really does have some neat characteristics!

I only want to do this one time, and have it last the life of the car (~ten years/150k~) with ZERO ISSUES

Thanks in advance! /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/worthy.gif
 

Brianawd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
2,117
Location
Portland OR,
Well for your fuel tank just take it into a place that does fuel tank cleaning and coating and let them know what you want.

Fuel lines are easy. -8ss line from tank to rail. I my self still am running the stock lines. Y have to remember that the e85 will clean out you fuel lines. I have just been changing my fuel filter every few weeks and cutting it open to see how bad it is. The last one was clean.

Fuel pump. Well I am still on a rewired 255hp. Don't know why its still hanging but it is. For you hp goal a rewired 255hp will work great.

FPR any after market one that does 1:1 will work.

Injectors. I run 1600s and am at the point of maxing them out. IDC was 79-82%. So for your setup. Its also dependent on what you are using for fuel control. 1000s/1200s. Or you could just get the 1600s and have room to play.

Fuel filter
I run stock. But you could run any of the ones you can replace just the filter element.

As for winter start up. most places the have e85 will move over to e70 in the winter to help with start up. E85 likes it lean on start up. On dsmlink I just slam my 50hz slider and the fixed my hard starts. Car fires right up on the first try.

Hope this helps good luck with the e85 you will love it
 

Quote:

Fuel pump?
Estimated power will be ~300awhp, so it's not going to have be a monster...E-85 will require more fuel, so figure ~550awhp (on gasoline) as the required feed volume, to leave some headroom. I freakin' hate loud pumps, so the whineboro pumps are NOT an option. I can do a two speed/fuel pump resistor set-up, to keep from overunning the regulator, if required, but I would really like to find an O.E. style in tank pump from a supra/300zxtt, etc...I would prefer an internal pump, and I will modify the pump bracket in the tank as required.



What about a Denso pump for a 3000GT VR4? I've got one in my car, and it's impossible to hear when the car is running. I think it's a drop in OEM replacement and flows 190 LPH on stock wiring; rewired should be approaching a Walbro. I had mine rewired for a number of years and never heard it, but now have it on stock wiring (for other issues).

Edit: I suppose that may not be enough for your thirsty ethanol needs; I don't know much about ethanol A/F ratios and how much fuel they need. However, since you're considering replacing everything anyway, you could always add a second, supplementary inline pump, either running all the time or boost triggered. I believe Aeromotive makes such a device and I know Bosch does.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Brian, thanks for your input!
I have already asked our local radiator shops about having the tank prepped. I think the fumes have gotten to them as they just look at me with a dumb, you want what? kind of a look. Our shop does ~$15k a year with them, so it's not like they don't know me. They just don't know anything about it. /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/confused.gif (Also, the epa has taken away many of their chemicals, which limits what they can do.)

I was thinking the the Eastwood company or some aftermarket restoration supplier would have something that would work as a tank sealant. Problem is, there is very little real world evidence about ethanol tolerance.

Fitch,
Thanks for your input as well! The fuel pump is one of the biggest obstacles at this point. I freakin' hate loud pumps! (pet peeve, in fact /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/tongue.gif), I'd really like to keep the pump in the tank, as our winter conditions here are quite ummm, wintery, and anything that lives under the car will get frozen/slushed/shmegged with mag chloride, etc., and that has caused durability problems in the past.

More input on higher volume pumps would be appreciated!
Many of the local dsm'ers use the wally 255 pumps, and they all seem to be loud, whiny, noisy set-ups. /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/banghead.gif. Can the pump be isolated from the bracket to minimise the racket? Has anybody engineered a better set-up for running the wally pumps?

The O.E. manufacturers of high h.p. cars have already solved the fuel delivery problems for the high end models. I would like to use an o.e. denso/bosch in tank style pump, if at all possible. I can rewire the thing with a two speed pump relay/resistor set up, or whatever it takes to make it work. It goes without saying that I will be building my own pump/sender assembly bracket for inside the tank, so pretty much anything that will fit thru the tank opening is fair game. I would like it to be ethanol tolerant, and right now, I'm looking at the late model o.e. flex fuel pumps that come on gm/ford v8's, but I'm not having much luck getting the information I need. (I fully suck at searching!)

Anyway, any and all input is welcomed! Here's a picture of my winter conditions to get you motivated.


All of you that can help me spec the fuel system for my winter beater get a free trip to the ski area down the road from us. /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/worthy.gif (//bribe! /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/wink.gif bribe!//)
 

boostedinaz

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
4,085
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Quote:


Fuel lines?


-8 for feed and -6 for return or go straigh -8 both ways.

Quote:
Fuel pump?


I honestly don't knwo of any fuel pumps designed for E85. I know that you can get alcohol specific feul pumps, but for the most part they are quite large and intended for big HP cars.

If I were in your shoes I would get an 044 pump or a Supra pump. Both will flow enough and are much quieter than a Walbro.

Quote:
Fuel Filter?


If you run braided lines I would just search Jegs for one that meets your needs. There should be a pretty good selection of filters that you can just chage an element within the body.

Quote:
Injectors?



Depending on what you are using to tune I would just go as big as possible. I believe you said DSMlink so might as well go with 1000 CC or 1600CC and never have to wory about overrunning them.

Thos are just my suggestions.

A lot of people say that E85 is super corrisive and the world will end when you use it with items not designed for it. I have been in a few arguments on a few boards and have yet to have anyone show me ONE car let alone MANY cars that have serious issues with a fuel system running E85. They can find article after article saying the E85 should, can, possible, and might eat away everything, but no one has been able to find a car that had real world problems. Food for thought.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
^^^Excellent info, Michael!!! Thank you!^^^

How are you connecting the flexible hose to the hard lines?

I had thought of flaring the hard line and using a/n fittings? Is there a better way?

EDIT: as a tech, I have seen a few gm/ford products with fuel pump/regulator/diaphragm problems, so there are some areas/materials that *may* be problematical. As far as aluminum lines go, I haven't seen any issues. It is really frustrating to try and get REAL WORLD, empirical data, that's for sure. Btw, I have the ASE alternative fuels certification, and have been researching/running alternative fuels for quite some time, (with no issues), so I'm not a total nOOb to E-85, I just feel like I'm re-inventing the wheel here, and was hoping some of our more enlightened members have some real world experience to share. /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/worthy.gif
 
Last edited:

Brianawd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
2,117
Location
Portland OR,
As For you fuel system. -8 from tank to rail will work great. -6 return is not needed. The only reason I would replace that is if they are in bad shape. With your fuel pump a 044 would work great but it is some work to make it fit. You said you don't like the sound of the walbro255. But to tell you the truth I can't even here mine running when the car is on. Most all fuel pumps will work with e85. the 15% gas that is in the e85 is there to lube the pump and injectors. If you move up to e98 like a lot of people to then you have to add lube the the e98 for the fuel pump and injectors. There have been people for years running on the same fuel pumps in the midwest that are running e85. Like said before you hardest part for you running e85 will be start up. it my take a few more times of cranking the car but you will be fine.
 

Quote:
as a tech, I have seen a few gm/ford products with fuel pump/regulator/diaphragm problems, so there are some areas/materials that *may* be problematical.



I don't know anything about the GM stuff, but I know that in recent years Ford has been having problems with their fuel systems running just regular gas, so it seems to me in at least that instance that it's an OEM quality/design problem and not a fuel problem.

Quote:
Fitch, Thanks for your input as well! The fuel pump is one of the biggest obstacles at this point. I freakin' hate loud pumps! (pet peeve, in fact ), I'd really like to keep the pump in the tank, as our winter conditions here are quite ummm, wintery, and anything that lives under the car will get frozen/slushed/shmegged with mag chloride, etc., and that has caused durability problems in the past.

More input on higher volume pumps would be appreciated!
Many of the local dsm'ers use the wally 255 pumps, and they all seem to be loud, whiny, noisy set-ups. . Can the pump be isolated from the bracket to minimise the racket? Has anybody engineered a better set-up for running the wally pumps?



Um, again, I'd recommend a 3kGTVR4 pump. It's made by Denso, so it's basically the same as our stock pumps (also Denso) just 80% or so "bigger" in flow. The only times I ever hear my pump are when the car is off, the trunk is open, and my head is in there doing something or other and someone turns the key and pump energizes to pressurize the system. That's it. It's that quiet. No bracket mods necessary, and if it somehow F's up while you're running E85, you can get it at the nearest dealership (if they stock it). I think our stock pumps are in the neighborhood of 100-110 LPH, the aforementioned pump is 190, and rewiring to the battery seems to add about 30-35% more flow (depending on the condition of your wiring/grounds) so a rewired pump should actually outflow a stock wired Walbro pump. I think the only way you're going to get a bigger flowing pump and still have it be quiet would be to run an external pump, and you already said you'd rather have an in-tank setup.
 

turbowop

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
Quote:
The only times I ever hear my pump are when the car is off, the trunk is open, and my head is in there doing something or other and someone turns the key and pump energizes to pressurize the system.



You're hearing something else. The pump doesn't pump, unless the CAS is spinning. I wouldn't ever run a 190lph pump for E85, I would want a lot more flow. If you're trying to get performance out of the car, the little bit of noise a Walbro makes should be the least of your worries, IMHO.
 

What else am I hearing? If I unplug the power feed to the pump, the noise (originating from the pump) stops. I don't know what else to say. I can hear the pump with the car off, but not with the car on. Now as to the 190 not providing enough flow for E85, that I'd take your advice over mine any day.

(mid post Edit:) Hmm... Mark may be right. I may be hearing the noise AFTER someone turns the car off (ie, ignition is dead, but the motor is still spinning down). In any case, my original point remains true: an idling car is WAY louder than a rewired Denso 190 LPH in-tank pump.
 

Mark is right: I would never consider the 3000GT pump for E85. Even with a stock base fuel pressure of 37 psi, that pump (rewired) can only flow 125 lph at 62psi, which is 37 base + 25 lbs of boost. Even 550cc injectors can outflow that, much less the huge 850 or more injectors you need for E85. 850's at 100% DC can flow 204 lph, so look for a pump that can supply at least that much at your base + boost pressure:
Fuelpump Guide
Even a non-rewired Walbro 255 can't deliver that much fuel volume. You should really consider a rewired Walbro 255HP or Supra pump to be the MINIMUM for E85, IMHO.
That is why the guys with the really impressive E85 setups, running 30+ lbs of boost, are running dual inline pumps, as no single one of the above mentioned pumps by itself can supply the E85 volume necessary:
1600cc injectors X 4 X 60 = 384 liters/hour.
 

boostedinaz

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
4,085
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
As already stated an 044 or a Supra pump are going to be the only pumps that will relaibly (flow wise) keep up with the demand you have and be fairly quiet.

They will require a bit of work to make them fit on the stock hanger, but it shouldn't be to much work.

Everything will be give and take on a project like this. You want quiet and good flow, you may have to do some work to get the pump to fit in the tank. You want easy of install and good flow you will have to deal with noise.
 

Brianawd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
2,117
Location
Portland OR,
one of the used set up's for e85 is a 255hp and a bosh 044. U use the 255 as the feeder pump for the 044. U can also use 2 255 in tank. If u do that make sure u use a Yblock. If u don't and try and use a T then the fuel pumps will be fighting each other. But to tell u the truth 1 255hp rewired or a Bosch will e enough pump for u
 

Brianawd

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Apr 18, 2005
Messages
2,117
Location
Portland OR,
so who gets the ski pass?
 

mikus

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Jan 11, 2007
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Location
Aurora IL
IMO I'd start off with dual pump, vs. hacking/modding mounting for a jumbo-pump.

The Evo 9 pump wasn't mentioned here but would seem like a quiet, alternative 1st leg on a 2-pump system?

I have yet to work a noisy pump on a Mitsu, but run a noisy pump on my caddy and have had minimal success quieting it down with mounting solutions. I'd have to build a deadening can to house it in to get it any quieter.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Quote:
so who gets the ski pass?



It's funny you would say that, it was actually snowing on and off earlier today /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/worthy.gif

The sad part is I haven't bought any of the hardline or spec'd the pump yet. /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/blush.gif

I'm ready to accept the consensus view on stainless hardline -8 for the pressure side, -6 for the return, and maybe -4 for the charcoal canistor/tank vent.

Has anyone run new hardlines before?

I've been asking around our local tOOner shops, and people get awfull vague when I start asking specific questions. I've bent up a few brake lines and things of that nature, but I've never tackled trying to run 20 feet of -8stainless. I'd like to follow the factory routing under the car as much as possible, so that means some tight bends around the front and rear subframes. Is it going to be hard to get a clean, tight bend on the -8 stainless?

I remember having to pack sand in a section of exhaust pipe we were bending back in the day to prevent the inside radius from collapsing. (don't ask, we were monster garaging it at 3am in the muffler shop, with stone-age tooling, it was fugly, but functional /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/tongue.gif)

Would packing the tube with clean playground sand (round grains) help any? I've got gun brushes that I can clean the tube with after I'm done spranglinfying it into a reasonable proximation of the factory routing, so I'm not worried about getting it clean again.

The other big question is how to terminate the ends/join the flexible hose sections from the tank and to the filter?

A flare would be easy, but how is stainless to work with? Does it work harden excessively? Will it be completely trouble free for the life of the car?

Is there another option? Brazing/welding a fitting on the hardline, for instance?

I really don't know... /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/dunno.gif

I'll do whatever it takes to do this right!

Again, thanks for your input!!!

This is by far the most knowledgable collection of helpfull people I've run across on the intraweb. /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/worthy.gif

(And Brian, you get out here, and I'll make sure you get to make some tracks /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/wink.gif )
 

CO VR4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
2,019
Location
Colorado
Grocery getter (Andre at Pina Motorsports) does a 044 Bosch conversion for 1Gs and I bet he could either do it or tell you how for a VR4. The 044 pump not only flows 300LPH, but it drops hardly at all at higher boost pressures, which is where the Supra pump starts to lag somewhat. If you're never boosting above 25PSI or so, the Supra pump would give you a strong 250-270 LPH if it is rewired. It also pulls alot of amps, though, so make sure you have plenty of gauge in the pump wiring.

E85 takes approximately 30% more fuel than gasoline, so if you needed 225LPH on gas, you'll need 300 on E85. Run the fuel use calculations for your targeted HP, and see if you can use either pump with a reasonable safety margin.
 
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