Piston ring selection

[tektic]

I have 86mm Manley Pistons. They use Manley part number 46860-4 rings. Total seal supplies the rings for Manley.
(86mm bore, 1st 1.2mm, 2nd 1.2mm, oil 2.8mm)

After 1200 miles on a fresh rebuild most of my crosshatching has been wiped off my cylinders. My main bearings were fowled up a bit with debris and the head gasket had a coolant leak.

My block is back at the machine shop getting redecked and rehoned. My crank is getting polished the block will be boiled and cleaned.

Although there doesn't seem to be a lot of info, I have read that some people dislike total seal rings because they are harsh on Mitsubishi cylinder walls. On closer inspection of the rings, only a very tiny line in the center of the rings outer edge ever came in contact with the wall.

I was planning to get npr rings and call it a day, however my pistons don't use the stock size rings.
Mahle 8600ms-12 and JE JC0004-3386 are the only two sets I have found containing the right size rings.

I don't want to open this engine up again. How do I choose the best ring set? Are there other Ring sets available that I was not able to find?

 

[turbohf]

i like to use NPR rings. i havent had issues with them yet. although i have used Hastings without issue once or twice.

and i found you some... click

 

[tektic]

Thank you. I will most likely be using those. You have used npr on a forged piston?

 

[vr4play]

I run the total seal gapless rings in my engine with no problems. I'd have to ck to see if its top or 2nd ring on my build sheet but I believe its 2nd. I've had it apart twice, once because I bent a rod when the wastegate hose came off and the 2nd time when I lost the bushings in the small end of the new rods. There weren't more than 5k on the motor the first time and my machinist looked at everything and told me to just throw them back in so I did. Everything looked good when we took it apart. The second time came because I reused the wrist pins after being pressed out of the stock rods and was only 150 miles later. Still looked good but I decided to just hit the cylinder walls lightly with a ball hone to freshen up the cross hatches and re-used the rings again. Took about 100 miles or so for everything to seat back in but compression is good and there is no blow-by. She runs strong although the turbo is shot now. I was planning to build a stroker soon so I didn't fell like wasting the money on new rings. As long as the machine work is good and the ring gap is correct there shouldn't be any problems. I have also used the hastings rings with no issues as well when I use stock pistons.

 

[turbohf]

Quoting tektic:
Thank you. I will most likely be using those. You have used npr on a forged piston?



yes i have. a set of wiesco/endyn pistons, didnt seem to be a problem. had perfect compression numbers. only failed because a valve head popped off and bounced around a little at 5500rpms... before that it was reving to 9500 and making 400whp like a champ.

think i had put a set on some srp/je pistons, but not 100% sure, may have used the rings that came with them (new).

 

[prove_it]

I've seen Mahle and JE piston and rings get used in high power builds. I've had great luck with my noisy wisecos too. I'm only making 320whp, but it's seen a lot of knock from playing with tuning. Still holding 165psi dead even after 26k miles of heavy abuse.

I really think your bigger issue was the total seal rings and possibly your break in.

I'll get burned for this, but what I did was start the engine, run til thermostat opens. Drain oil and filter. Refill, then idle for 20 minutes. Drain and refill. Then I went out and drove it across the rpm range. I ran it WOT to redline and let it engine coast down to idle. Did it 5 times then changed oil. Done and done. The WOT parts were done at WG pressure. You'll hear 100's of ways to break in rings. I think the main concept is to force the rings to expand and wear into the walls slightly, then engine coast to pull vacuum which cleans them off.

I'll be following you on this as I got my fingers crossed that the 2nd time is the charm.

 

[fuel]

^^ what's your reasoning behind letting the engine idle for 20 mins on a fresh build? That's probably one of the worst things you can do as the bores will glaze up as the rings have not yet bed in correctly.

I would be starting the engine, letting it idle a little bit (blipping the throttle as much as you can though) until it's up to operating temperature then head out driving for about 30-60mins/50mi or so and keeping a varied load on the engine and perhaps a handful of WOT pulls. Don't let it coast at constant rpms or load for too long, constantly row through the gears and make sure you do lots of low rpm/high gear pulls and engine braking where possible.

But you're right, everyone has their own engine break in techniques and the above has worked very well for me and is usually the general consensus I got from experienced engine builders.

 

[prove_it]

Good info to know.

 

[turbohf]

Quoting fuel:
^^ what's your reasoning behind letting the engine idle for 20 mins on a fresh build? That's probably one of the worst things you can do as the bores will glaze up as the rings have not yet bed in correctly.





Honda lists that as the break in procedure for new bearings.


i do the same. i fire it off, keep eye on AFR's, check for leaks, knocks, etc. let it run till the fans cycle a couple times (usually the 30mins or so) probably dialing in my idle AFR's along the way. once thats done ill move on to driving it around and starting my tuning. it will see boost before the end of the day thats for sure.

 

[turbohf]

 

[prove_it]

That's bearings though. Rings seat differently. This could get so far off topic though.

 

[tektic]

It say let it idle till operation temp, then continue to run it. It doesn't say continue to idle, but then again it is pretty vague.

My assumption would be the intent is to make sure the bearing expands as much as they can so they are seated firmly in the journal and there for less likely to spin on the next cold start.

It's hard to make ever new part happy at once but it does not seem like a good idea to idle for 30 minuets with brand new rings and hone.

The east cost rep for manley Tom Razzano Called me the other day in a response to an email I sent. We talked for about a half hour and went over all that could have happends. He assured me that theres no issue with the total seal rings with evo blocks and that he has sold over 750 sets of mitsubishi pistons this year. He couldn't comment on the older blocks but I don't know how different they could be. My pistons came out totally fine so that was good. Any way I wont be using the total seal again.

Nippon Piston Rings are made to work with this block So I'll use them. I think this condition may have been due to the rings but was first and foremost due to coolant contamination. As was the condition of my main bearings. I plastic gauged my mains and they were not exactly even 1-5 .002 .002 .0018 .0016 .0015. I didn't clean everything as much as I should have and it was well below 65 degrees in my garage when I tested it but the resulting strips were definitely different sizes.

As for the coolant issue I'm going to resurface everything and use another mls head gasket.

thanks guys

 

[thruarod]

Are the NPR rings stainless? I believe that what the JE's are which came with my pistons and that what is typically used in these engines. Maybe that's what we should be looking into? A ductile iron ring or something softer?

 

[turbohf]

the NPR rings I have installed have all had an iron top ring and I think a stainless second ring.

 

[Spyder]

aren't you supposed to use chrome rings for boosted applications?

 

[tektic]

Yeah... I'm rethinking this now.

Are the NPR Rings from the Accord different material than the NPR rings for the turbo 4g63?

Edit: Sent NPR an email there catalog doesn't specify coating but seems to state they are all steel rings.

 

[tektic]

Quoting turbohf:
i like to use NPR rings. i havent had issues with them yet. although i have used Hastings without issue once or twice.

and i found you some... click



These rings aren't even remotely correct. There goes $30