COP Reliability

[turbojew]

Hey im looking at a VR4 and it has COP set up tuned with SD. Is it worth buying this car? I want reliability and have heard horror stories about COP set ups. I also only have end goals of 400 horse power. I wont ever need COP at these hp numbers i feel....can anyone clarify?

 

[James]

I personally think COP has a shorter shelf life.. But in reality it shouldn't push you away from buying a car. Wires, coil, transistor is all you need to buy to go back to stock.

 

[turbojew]

what about tuning?

 

[James]

No tuning in the coil setup.

As for speed density? Hopefully he has it set up correctly and you just use it as-is. If not I know there are a ton of pages based on tuning density.

Or again just buy a 1g/2g Maf and go back to stock

 

[turbowop]

I wouldn't turn down the purchase of a whole car over just a COP setup. If the rest of the car is worth it, swapping from COP to a stock coil and wire setup is pretty easy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[theevozero]

If the car still has a stock ecu and is running COP and SD, chances are the owner has done some other retarded sh*t. But as stated by everyone else, it can be un-done. Cop would be great if people spent the time to use them correctly. If the car is gonna stay wasted spark, a coil on plug set-up is utterly useless, in fact less than stock in this configuration. It literally cuts secondary coil saturation in half, firing 4 coils (instead of 2) with a wasted spark ecu. A stand alone is recommended. Also, running SD on a MAF based ecu does not work like everyone thinks it does. It does seem to be the popular thing to do though.....

 

[LIV4PSI]

What is wrong with running SD on an ECU that was originally MAF based? You are referring to using ECMlink or an EVO ECU with SD setup, correct?

 

[prove_it]

Quoting theevozero:
If the car still has a stock ecu and is running COP and SD, chances are the owner has done some other retarded sh*t. But as stated by everyone else, it can be un-done. Cop would be great if people spent the time to use them correctly. If the car is gonna stay wasted spark, a coil on plug set-up is utterly useless, in fact less than stock in this configuration. It literally cuts secondary coil saturation in half, firing 4 coils (instead of 2) with a wasted spark ecu. A stand alone is recommended. Also, running SD on a MAF based ecu does not work like everyone thinks it does. It does seem to be the popular thing to do though.....




What?

 

[theevozero]

Quoting LIV4PSI:
What is wrong with running SD on an ECU that was originally MAF based? You are referring to using ECMlink or an EVO ECU with SD setup, correct?



Both. Fake maf. Still based on a grams per revolution algorithm.

 

[turbowop]

...and? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Who cares? It works well, so what's the problem? For $500 ECMlink beats the hell out of any other form of tuning for the money, not to mention how much better it is than tuning solutions we had not many years ago. It's simple, intuitive, and requires very little modification to be up and running mafless.

 

[theevozero]

Assuming you don't buy a used aem. I paid $500 for mine. Yea it requires more to install and get going, but is much more vesatile and you can use REAL speed density. Speed Density is pressure vs rpm, period.

Dsm link is simple, for sure, no arguement there.

 

[turbowop]

And what does REAL speed density do better for us? Would the majority of us see a benefit? I somehow doubt it.

 

[theevozero]

I mean, if you don't like a consistent tune, then sure. If accuracy is something hate, go for it. I tune once and go. The aem is the exact same every time I hit the throttle. Afr's and timing are always dead on, through all temperature changes.

 

[turbowop]

I don't see any inconsistency in my tune. AFR and timing are always where I set them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif At IMSCC I was able to put down 424whp with my timing and AFRs right where I wanted them. The next day I was able to squeeze out 34mpg with zero changes to the tune. No stalling, no weird driveability issues. No problems.

I know that an AEM setup can be great in the hands of somebody proficient with it. I'm not saying that I dislike it. I'm just saying that it's overkill for what most of us on this forum are doing. And way more expensive. I'm not even sure I would see any benefit if I were to change to an AEM.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to hate on ECMlink in this thread. Unless you just like to troll because you're an AEM fanboy.

 

[curtis]

Quoting theevozero:
If the car still has a stock ecu and is running COP and SD, chances are the owner has done some other retarded sh*t. But as stated by everyone else, it can be un-done. Cop would be great if people spent the time to use them correctly. If the car is gonna stay wasted spark, a coil on plug set-up is utterly useless, in fact less than stock in this configuration. It literally cuts secondary coil saturation in half, firing 4 coils (instead of 2) with a wasted spark ecu. A stand alone is recommended. Also, running SD on a MAF based ecu does not work like everyone thinks it does. It does seem to be the popular thing to do though.....




Cop's got a bad name from hacks mainly and people that have never had one or built one, these have always fallen into the google expert phenomenon. Yes saturation time is less but there's ways around that plus driveability always goes up, resistivity from coil to plug drops and no more melting and arching out plug wires. Sometimes parts aren't always created equally either. I've built a bunch of them and everyone has always been happy, and not everyone is just worried about 1320 ft at a time but some that do have run these. Nelson has one I built and it seemed to do OK since he's still holding the record for the Fastest VR4 on the planet. You go make a low 9 second pass with a full body non stripped out interior and get back to us.......or just give Nelson and Nate a call and tell them your going to meet them at island raceway for a heads up pass.

click me

click me video 2

 

[cheekychimp]

Quoting theevozero:
If the car is gonna stay wasted spark, a coil on plug set-up is utterly useless, in fact less than stock in this configuration. It literally cuts secondary coil saturation in half, firing 4 coils (instead of 2) with a wasted spark ecu. A stand alone is recommended.



Or a proper CDI. If I remember correctly the AEM solution to this is not up to much certainly not compared to quality CDIs like MoTeC, M&W and Autronic. I never really understood why if AEM was as good as they said it was the manufacturers would settle for a baby's first CDI unit. Then again the internet is full of misinformation. For instance everyone I know that walked away from AEM said it was because of how inconsistent it was and how different weather would make a previously good car into a pig never mind taking the vehicle on a road trip and expecting it to perform the whole time.

 

[theevozero]

I've had some inconsistency with boost control using series 1. But, I mostly blame myself. Which is probably why people walk away from it. Series 1 is much less user friendly than series 2. BUT, I have had zero issues with keeping my engine from melting down, or dependability. The only reason I referenced aem is because its the most common. As far as COP goes, it would be optimized with a device that has more than 2 outputs for ignition(such as aem, motec, etc...), period, I don't see the argument. As for speed density, a stock ecu with a piggyback will not be able to use pressure vs rpm....end of story. Maybe I'm just being OCD, I just prefer to use the correct variables.

 

[LIV4PSI]

Whether ECMlink or using open source on an EVO ECU, neither are piggybacks.

 

[cheekychimp]

Quoting theevozero:
I've had some inconsistency with boost control using series 1. But, I mostly blame myself. Which is probably why people walk away from it. Series 1 is much less user friendly than series 2. BUT, I have had zero issues with keeping my engine from melting down, or dependability. The only reason I referenced aem is because its the most common. As far as COP goes, it would be optimized with a device that has more than 2 outputs for ignition(such as aem, motec, etc...), period, I don't see the argument. As for speed density, a stock ecu with a piggyback will not be able to use pressure vs rpm....end of story. Maybe I'm just being OCD, I just prefer to use the correct variables.



You state COP is a waste of time with wasted spark due to cutting secondary coil saturation in half. My argument is that if sufficient power, charge, voltage (whatever you want to call it) is provided by a decent quality CDI, this won't be an issue and negates the need for a stand alone sequential ignition. EVEN if, the best setup would be the CDI and sequential ignition combined.

 

[GreenGSX]

I've been using a home built coil on plug set up for over 7 years. That's the same COP on two cars. It started its life on my old track Eclipse. I built it because in one year I had to be towed off track twice because failed set of plug wires (NGK). First set burnt, second set got loose and rubbed the timing belt.

I built my COP with a plate sourced from VR4.org and junk yard coils from an Intrepid. In seven years of racing, including 3 years doing One Lap, I had one coil fail. Otherwise its been great. Starts, idles, and makes power. Recently made 450whp (mustang dyno) with a set of NGK 8's gapped at 0.022. So for me, its reliable and makes great power even without using a CDI box which, are far more flaky than a COP.