Same day after rebuild engine broke, HELP!!!

[JoeyTredia]

Hello guys and greetings from P.R. I'm a newbie and proud owner of 968/2000. I'll try to make the long story short but it will definitely be interesting. I bought this car almost two years ago not running, the guy i bought it from broke a piston so he rebuilt the short block (original 6 bolt) installing wiseco pistons and arp head studs. The head is a 2G stock with an evo intake, stock cams, turbonetics cast manifold and a Garrett 60/1 with a 38mm external wastegate. For now i'm using the stock ecu but will be doing a newer ecu reflash or ecm link install soon. A 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust with a 3 inch magnaflow round muffler. The tranny is in very good condition with a "phantom LSD" installed and a 4 bolt rear diff. Those are the drivetrain mods for your knowledge, now back to the story (problem). After the previous owner rebuilt the short block he confronted some money issues and that's when i bought the car from him. He just threw the engine and tranny back in the bay and i took it home. Every now and then i started to put everything back together, i threw away the old fmic and steel tubing and bought a 650HP capable (frozenboost) water to air ic kit, HKS SSQBOV and installed it. When i finally started the car i had a rare problem with my clutch, when the engine was running i could not shift any gears. I replaced both clutch pumps, primed them and still the same thing, so a friend of mine (drag talon tsi owner) told me it could be the clutch disc sticking to the flywheel, the pressure plate or even the fork. So i decided to take down the tranny and found out that the act pp was not so good and the clutch disc was an organic exedy. The fork seemed ok but i decided to put two washers on the pivot ball just in case. I bought an 2600 ACT Extreme pp and 4 puck disc. Now it gets more interesting, while i had the tranny off, simply for curiosity (remember the short block had been rebuilt) i decided to check for crankwalk and BOOM!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif i did noticed a big lateral play on the crank. I then removed the oil pan and found an ugly groove on the crank, fortunately the block was ok. So i then removed the engine, placed it in an engine stand and installed a "like new" crank (cleaned and polished from a turbo automatic eclipse) new Kings bearings (again) and a rebuilt oil pump because after checking the one the engine had was not so good either. Everything was torqued to specs and put back together. I started the engine (after priming it of course), checked for leaks and everything was ok. When i was going to take it out around the block, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif i still had the same "no shifting issue" so i still went around the block just to see if the issue somehow would "fix" itself and nothing happened. I stepped on the gas a little bit to check the turbo and water to air ic set up, but the turbo did not spooled (i then realized i forgot to connect the vacumm line to the wastegate) so as soon i stepped off the gas i heard something strange (some engine knocking) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif. When i got it back to my garage i noticed that oil had squirted from the block below the intake manifold. Further checking i found that somehow a plug that screws on the block near the starter came off and some oil squirted. The engine still had good oil level though. At idle you don't hear any knocking but at about 2000rpms or less you could hear it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif The oil pressure by this time is very low 10psi at idle. I then removed the oil pan and found number 1 and 2 rod bearings ok but number 3 and 4 rod bearings were very bad, the rear cap bearings were also damaged, the middle cap bearing and the front cap bearing were ok. Now you imagine my dilema /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I really need your expertise advise on this, I need to know the possible causes for that plug to blow or come off and the oil lubrication or pressure probable causes also. Any information will be greatly appreciated. I also uploaded some pics of the problem and i know i have to clean up the engine bay but remember i just finished putting everything back together and still need to finish installing my new AEM wideband, Greddy EGT and Prosport Halo gauges set. Thanks. And great site by the way simply the best. It really feels like my GVR4 all around medical center with the best doctors, nurses and janitors, jajaja.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

The plug (bolt) that goes in that hole is for checking the position of the silent (balance) shaft. The only way the plug can come loose is if you didn't tighten it properly. Or possibly, you forgot to install it at all. I've never had a problem just snugging the bolt down, but next time, use some blue Locktite (semi-permanent) on the bolt threads before tightening it for extra piece of mind.

As far as the bearing damage goes, I'd assume it has something to do with running the car low on oil.

No shifting issues are typically caused by your clutch not disengaging. Have someone work the clutch pedal while you look under the car for proper travel at the slave. If the clutch fork is moving as it should, it's likely there's some sort of internal issue causing the disk to bind. The fact that you shimmed the slave tells me there's something screwed up with the amount of travel you have. Did you make any adjustments at the clutch pedal itself? The flywheel could be jacked up as well, since improperly stepped flywheels have been known to cause engagement/disengagement issues. What flywheel is being used? Did you replace the TOB when you installed the new clutch?

Lastly, you should recirculate your BOV. Unless you are running SD, MAFT, or some sort of other stand alone engine management (and it doesn't look like you are), venting is a bad idea, and causes tons of issues that make your car run like poop... stinky poop

 

[prove_it]

Does this have ARP Main studs or OEM bolts?

I would guess that the crank bore is not straight, possibly from the caps being swapped around or replaced without an align hone. Did you ever measure your clearances with plastiguage?

 

[transparentdsm]

there is also the possibility that the linkage isn't adjusted properly, causing it to not shift.

as for the oil hole, that would have caused the oil pump to fail, as that is the crank case and it needs the pressure. so with the bolt out, oil has less pressure, the oil pump wasn't sucking enough oil to go through all the galleys and that is why 3 and 4 are toasted and 1 and 2 are ok.. if you can even call it that as they clearly have markings in them.

it also looks to me like the #4 cap has been taken to a grinder of some sorts.

 

[JoeyTredia]

Thanks for your prompt reply GSTwithPSI, I admit having made a big mistake. After checking prior pics of the engine being assembled I did noticed that the hole had nothing plugging it. So that explains my major problem /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif I then come to the conclusion that the car from the first start did not have enough oil pressure and that caused the bearings damage, correct me if i'm wrong. Regarding the clutch problem i shimmed the fork because it had some play, nothing major, i did not make any adjustments on the clutch pedal, is there any that can be made? The flywheel i noticed that it had been machined for proper engagement, i'm using the stock flywheel and the TOB is new. I checked the crank with my finger nail and felt no grooves at all at any of the journals, can i just replace the bearings and put everything back again? Obviously after plugging the hole using loctite of course. As for the BOV i am using a 2G flowmeter for now because as i explained before i'm planning on using probably an ecm link. Thanks again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[JoeyTredia]

Quoting prove_it:
Does this have ARP Main studs or OEM bolts?

I would guess that the crank bore is not straight, possibly from the caps being swapped around or replaced without an align hone. Did you ever measure your clearances with plastiguage?

I'm using OEM bolts for now and every cap was well marked and documented before and after installation and everything was align honed when the previous ownwer made the rebuild. Thanks for your reply.

 

[JCorbo25]

Quoting JoeyTredia:
As for the BOV i am using a 2G flowmeter for now because as i explained before i'm planning on using probably an ecm link. Thanks again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Just my .02, the 2G MAS should have the BOV recirculated. This will just cause it to run rich after the BOV opens.

Looks like a nice setup though.

 

[JoeyTredia]

Quoting transparentdsm:
there is also the possibility that the linkage isn't adjusted properly, causing it to not shift.

as for the oil hole, that would have caused the oil pump to fail, as that is the crank case and it needs the pressure. so with the bolt out, oil has less pressure, the oil pump wasn't sucking enough oil to go through all the galleys and that is why 3 and 4 are toasted and 1 and 2 are ok.. if you can even call it that as they clearly have markings in them.

it also looks to me like the #4 cap has been taken to a grinder of some sorts.

Thanks for your reply, what type of adjustment can be made to the shift linkage? Regarding the oil hole, after reading your explanation that's when i chose to check my older pics and like i explained in GSTwithPSI reply, big mistake by me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif And for the #4 cap you are right, when i was putting the new bearings i did noticed that the whole rod had been swapped (probably from a previous failure) but it was measured and ok. Now let me ask for your opinion also, i did checked all the crank journals with my finger nail and felt no grooves at all, can i just replace new bearings and put everything back again? Thanks again for your time.

 

[transparentdsm]

you can try it for a quick fix, but i dont think its going to work. that isn't to say that it isnt going to work at all, but most of the time if you hear a knock something is out of round and the rods all need to be checked for round and the same goes with the crank.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting JoeyTredia:
Thanks for your prompt reply GSTwithPSI, I admit having made a big mistake. After checking prior pics of the engine being assembled I did noticed that the hole had nothing plugging it. So that explains my major problem /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif I then come to the conclusion that the car from the first start did not have enough oil pressure and that caused the bearings damage, correct me if i'm wrong. Regarding the clutch problem i shimmed the fork because it had some play, nothing major, i did not make any adjustments on the clutch pedal, is there any that can be made? The flywheel i noticed that it had been machined for proper engagement, i'm using the stock flywheel and the TOB is new. I checked the crank with my finger nail and felt no grooves at all at any of the journals, can i just replace the bearings and put everything back again? Obviously after plugging the hole using loctite of course. As for the BOV i am using a 2G flowmeter for now because as i explained before i'm planning on using probably an ecm link. Thanks again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



-BOV- Are you planning on using ECMlink in SD mode? If not, recirculate the BOV. The end.

-Motor- No, you can't just put the motor back together with that crank. There's no way in hell that crank survived with bearings that look like the ones you posted. From the looks of the pics, the main crank journals might be ok, but the rod journals have got to be shot. Post some pics of the crank journals up. I know that's shitty news, but it is what it is.

Here's the bearings out of my car after the initial start up and after running about 30 min. See how the dull grey color is still mostly present compared to the bearings you posted? There was definitely some issue(s) with your new motor, we just need to figure out what. Until you get it fixed, your motor will just keep destroying bearings, so just throwing it back together wouldn't be advisable.

-Clutch- People shim the slave. Some people even shim the pivot ball. I would never do either unless absolutely necessary. I'd say most people who are adding shims to the pivot ball and spacers to the slave are doing so not because they have to, but because they aren't getting the proper amount of travel because of an actual problem with the system. Instead of actually fixing the issue, people just jump to adding spacers and shims because it's easy. From my understanding and experience, you should never have to shim the slave if everything is working properly. Others, may have a different opinion, but that is mine. I know I have never had to shim a slave. You can adjust the pedal assembly to make sure you are getting the full amount of travel from the push rod at the clutch master cylinder. Aside from that, check shift linkage as suggested by transparentdsm. Like I said, have someone push the clutch pedal while you are under the car looking for proper amount of moment from the clutch fork. The clutch fork needs to be in the center of the rectangular opening of the transmission while at rest. If it is positioned too far toward the left (passenger side) there isn't enough room in that distance to disengage the clutch. I would bet this is your problem. Check the things suggested and report back here with the results, and we can help you better.

How to adjust clutch pedal
1G shifter adjustment, pretty much same on a VR4
Make sure you are using a VR4 trans/cables/brackets because they are different.

 

[JoeyTredia]

Thanks for all this info and advise GSTwithPSI, just letting you know that i've read your new reply and I'll try to post some pics of the crank asap. I'm going to be busy the next couple of days at work so, i'll try to get back asap so you guys can help me decide on what to do next. Again I really appreciate all your info and advise on this matter. Also , yesterday i happened to pass by Diamond Motorsports (they specialize in eclipses and evos) and i showed the owner the bearings and the first thing he told me was that the oil pump was the culprit. And as for the shift problem he told me something very interesting that i've never heard of but made a lot of sense. He told me that on these (earlier) cars if i notice the clutch pedal a little lower than the brake pedal (which in my case i do) then is a problem in the whole pedal linkage assembly. He told me that i need to remove the whole assembly (which he also told me is a pain) align the pedal and solder it. I don't know if you guys have dealt with this particular issue before but I want to share it with you just in case. I need your opinion on the oil pump matter also. Thanks again for your time and will be getting back asap.

 

[JCorbo25]

It was probably that hole leaking oil and not the oil pump, he's probably just talking about low oil pressure causing bearing damage.

For the clutch pedal assembly, I know JNZ Tuning had a clutch pedal rebuild kit, but you can also weld it. GVR4 Clutch Pedal Assembly This is a common problem with older/high mileage 1G and GVR4s. I'm looking at rebuilding mine also. It is a PITA to get out, but just take your time. JNZ Tuning informed me that the 1G and GVR4 use a slightly different pedal assembly, they are not direct swaps.

 

[mitsuturbo]

Quoting JoeyTredia:
He told me that i need to remove the whole assembly (which he also told me is a pain) align the pedal and solder it. I don't know if you guys have dealt with this particular issue before but I want to share it with you just in case. I need your opinion on the oil pump matter also. Thanks again for your time and will be getting back asap.



He gave you somewhat valid information on the clutch pedal assembly, however.. SOLDER is definitely not going to solve your problem. You'd have to either buy parts to replace those which are worn, or WELD it. Solder simply will not do for this application.

 

[DSSA]

If your pedal is already slipping, it is rounded. Unless you are VERY accurate in centering the pedal to the linkage BEFORE welding, you'll end up making more of a mess of it than it already is.

Replace the clutch pedal and the MC link with new units. This will assure that the positioning of one to the other is correct. THEN weld it. I can't remember all of the pedal assemblies I've had to fix over the years where someone thought that just throwing a bead around there would fix their problem. The issue was, they welded it out of position. It's fun cutting it apart after it has been welded incorrectly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

Replace the end bushing with one that isn't going to melt while you weld it (no, solder won't hold it, nor will JB Weld--seen both, fixed both).

As for the balance shaft check bolt coming out of the block, no, that will no lower oil pressure. No different than running a car without the dipstick in the tube---with exception of oil loss, it will not change pressure as it isn't in an oil passage.

10 psi is low on a fresh motor, running break-in oil, and not having the oil super hot. If you were running 5W-30 Synthetic on a broken-in motor, I wouldn't worry too much about that reading in a hot motor with balance shafts, but with thicker break-in oil, no shafts, that's pretty low. Your bearings attest to that. Feed priority is 1-2-3-4. Notice how the bearings also get progressively worse in that pattern.

Make sure that someone didn't assemble the oil pump & oil filter housing gaskets with tube-style RTV. I've seen brand new motors wipe everything out when someone has been over-zealous with the stuff and plugged the feed from the pump either partially or completely.

 

[JoeyTredia]

Quoting mitsuturbo:
Quoting JoeyTredia:
He told me that i need to remove the whole assembly (which he also told me is a pain) align the pedal and solder it. I don't know if you guys have dealt with this particular issue before but I want to share it with you just in case. I need your opinion on the oil pump matter also. Thanks again for your time and will be getting back asap.



He gave you somewhat valid information on the clutch pedal assembly, however.. SOLDER is definitely not going to solve your problem. You'd have to either buy parts to replace those which are worn, or WELD it. Solder simply will not do for this application.


Thanks for your reply and time mitsuturbo, it was my mistake using the word "solder", what i really meant that he told me was in fact to "weld" it. Translation problems you know!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif Nice meeting you buddy.

 

[JoeyTredia]

Quoting JCorbo25:
It was probably that hole leaking oil and not the oil pump, he's probably just talking about low oil pressure causing bearing damage.

For the clutch pedal assembly, I know JNZ Tuning had a clutch pedal rebuild kit, but you can also weld it. GVR4 Clutch Pedal Assembly This is a common problem with older/high mileage 1G and GVR4s. I'm looking at rebuilding mine also. It is a PITA to get out, but just take your time. JNZ Tuning informed me that the 1G and GVR4 use a slightly different pedal assembly, they are not direct swaps.


Thanks for your reply and link to JNZ JCorbo25, i would definitely consider JNZ's clutch pedal rebuild kit as soon i get mine out and check how bad it is. Regarding the bearings damage i definitely hope that the hole on the block was the real problem and not the oil pump, crossing fingers!!! Nice meeting you also buddy.

 

[JoeyTredia]

Quoting DSSA:
If your pedal is already slipping, it is rounded. Unless you are VERY accurate in centering the pedal to the linkage BEFORE welding, you'll end up making more of a mess of it than it already is.

Replace the clutch pedal and the MC link with new units. This will assure that the positioning of one to the other is correct. THEN weld it. I can't remember all of the pedal assemblies I've had to fix over the years where someone thought that just throwing a bead around there would fix their problem. The issue was, they welded it out of position. It's fun cutting it apart after it has been welded incorrectly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

Replace the end bushing with one that isn't going to melt while you weld it (no, solder won't hold it, nor will JB Weld--seen both, fixed both).

As for the balance shaft check bolt coming out of the block, no, that will no lower oil pressure. No different than running a car without the dipstick in the tube---with exception of oil loss, it will not change pressure as it isn't in an oil passage.

10 psi is low on a fresh motor, running break-in oil, and not having the oil super hot. If you were running 5W-30 Synthetic on a broken-in motor, I wouldn't worry too much about that reading in a hot motor with balance shafts, but with thicker break-in oil, no shafts, that's pretty low. Your bearings attest to that. Feed priority is 1-2-3-4. Notice how the bearings also get progressively worse in that pattern.

Make sure that someone didn't assemble the oil pump & oil filter housing gaskets with tube-style RTV. I've seen brand new motors wipe everything out when someone has been over-zealous with the stuff and plugged the feed from the pump either partially or completely.


My pleasure meeting you sir and thanks for your reply and time, regarding your pedal linkage recommendation and expertise I will definitely follow that. And as for the oil pressure problem you are the second expert to use almost the same words (no, that will no lower oil pressure) about the unplugged hole on the block. I did all the rebuild myself but, I took the old oil pump to this guy that was recommended to me because he owns a drag talon and have lots of engine parts available for sale and so on. Anyways he disassembled the oil pump in my presence and it was very worn out so he told me he could get me another one in good condition so i took his word for it and bought it from him and installed it. But right now i don't know how to check if in fact is the oil pump (any advise on that would be great) so i can reclaim him for the damage. As for the oil pump & oil filter housing gaskets I am aware that it's not recommended to use RTV, I used an OEM oil pump gasket and Permatex spray hi-tack sealant (my favorite) but since the oil filter housing gasket wasn't available i fabricated one myself from a piece of water and oil resistant gasket making material (using also the hi-tack) making sure not to block in any way any of the holes. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[mitsuturbo]

Quoting JoeyTredia:
Quoting JCorbo25:
It was probably that hole leaking oil and not the oil pump, he's probably just talking about low oil pressure causing bearing damage.

For the clutch pedal assembly, I know JNZ Tuning had a clutch pedal rebuild kit, but you can also weld it. GVR4 Clutch Pedal Assembly This is a common problem with older/high mileage 1G and GVR4s. I'm looking at rebuilding mine also. It is a PITA to get out, but just take your time. JNZ Tuning informed me that the 1G and GVR4 use a slightly different pedal assembly, they are not direct swaps.


Thanks for your reply and link to JNZ JCorbo25, i would definitely consider JNZ's clutch pedal rebuild kit as soon i get mine out and check how bad it is. Regarding the bearings damage i definitely hope that the hole on the block was the real problem and not the oil pump, crossing fingers!!! Nice meeting you also buddy.



The hole you've mentioned is not pressurized in any way. It would in NO way contribute to bearing failure; at least not any more than an oil leak from the pan, or turbo return line. You could very well have some other issue.

Are you still running balance shafts? If not, what are you using for a shaft replacement in the oil pump?

 

[toybreaker]

Joey,

I hate to read posts like this.

It's bad enough to have one failure but two will definately take some of the wind out of your sails. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


A dirty crank can cause damage *like* this, but it looks like there is something else going on


When an engine is improperly cleaned after a failure, this kind of failure is often the result.




Does this engine still have the oil squirters?

Were they removed and properly cleaned after the first failure?


Folks seem to foget that these are a controlled system.


They are designed to operate only when needed.

At low oil pressures, they are closed.

It's only at higher flows that they are "supposed" to operate.

If they "hang" open, you are almost gauranteed to have exactly the damage you have posted.
(low pressure/volume to the system at low rpm's will wipe the bearings out progressively from one end to the other, with the least damage up at the pump end of things)


Many machine shops don't get how important the final cleaning is, and expect the owner to do a final cleaning.

That's horseshite, plain and simple. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

They *should* have the tools and equipment to do the job properly.

... folks at home don;t have the cool guy brushes / access to the galleys that the guys in the machine shop do.

It's a simple matter to clean a completely stripped block

Once a single galley plug (or oil squirter) is installed you can NOT "clean" a damn thing without risking swarf going into a galley.

Competent / proffesional machinists will do a final clean for you (and charge you for it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif, and return your parts in clean and sealed bags.


If you recieve your parts loose / unbagged, they didn;t do the job right ...

Find another shop, and have them re-do the final cleaning proccess.



Please be sure that the crank, block and squirters are properly addressed on your next build.


Good luck with your new build, and post some pics of the beast in action.

You guys down there build some of the coolest cars /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[BogusSVO]

Joey T and GSTwithPSI

To me it looks like you made a simple engine build mistake.

You both confused the main bearing halves. The upper (block) and lower (main caps)

The uppers have oil holes so the oil can pass through the main bearing and feed oil to the mains, then onto the rods.

If you go back and look at the pics you both posted, you will see the oil holes/grooved upper main bearings in the main caps.

On King bearings, the lower main bearings are solid, no holes, no grooves.

Both these engines were going to fail in minutes. Due to the oil galleys to the crank being blocked off.

NIB King 6 bolt main bearings


I just opened this package for this thread. Solid bearings (top row) fit in the main caps, The lower row (with grooves and holes) fit in the block


Now the crank will need to be replaced, or ground undersized. The housing bores of the con rods need to be torqued and checked for round and spec, the main bores need to be torqued and checked also.

With as much head that was made when the engine was running, I would expect the Main bores and the big end of the rods to be distorted.

Keep in mind, the difference between high and low spec on the housing bores is .0007

Now with the low oil pressure, you have another issue, if a BSE has been done, make sure the front (exhaust side) BS bearings have been flipped to block off the oil feed ports to them (Front BS is out of engine)

With the main bearings being in the wrong locations, oil pressure should have been high, 80-100+ psi or more. (some engines see this with just a BSE.

Another thing to check is to make sure the gasket for the oil pick up screen is in place, if not this will allow for the pump to suck air easier than oil.