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Help me decide on camshafts to suit the T51R SPL

bazeng

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Hi All,

I think my cams are letting me down in power.
Either that or i need much more boost on my turbo.

Basically had the car on the dyno and it made similar power to my old setup with a lot more lag.

I need the power band to be between 5k - 9k.

The starts to spool at around 4k.

Any advice appreciated.
 

EMX5636

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Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
1,631
Location
Bucks County, PA
A big nasty Kelford 280 will make power where you want. They are spool killers though. What boost are you running and where do you see full boost at?
 

onesickcrx

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
1,076
Location
NY
And what cams are you running now? I loved my Kelford 272's in 449
 

G

Staff member
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Messages
8,896
Location
zompton
What about solid type procam? click Doesn't look like the type r is made for our 4g63.
 

pot

Staff member
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
1,573
Location
Fayetteville, NC
There was a lengthy article from either Turbo or Import Tuner magazine sometime ago where Martin Musial from AMS discussed the different camshaft benefits available for the 4g63. Granted, I believe this was for the EVO however reading this article (which I'm sure you can find online) may allow you to establish a baseline for what your after.
 

curtis

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Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Ok first off I know thats one of the gods of turbos and instant weak part finder. In the same league as a s475 borg warner unit. 1000 to 1200 hp.

Never really seen one in person I don't believe. HKS hairdryers over here are rare but 35r's are everywhere. All that said whats the flow rate on the compressor and have you tried hooking a pressure gauge to the exhaust manifold just to see the balance between intake and exhaust manifold pressure. It may just come down to the exhaust housing isn't small enough or its just not turned up high enough to make it come on.


If you remember I posted about a friends 2G that just never came on. He dug around in the tables and tune on the autronic stuff and found a few problems which helped out some but never got it perfect then the trans went boom, wife had a baby and had some health problems going on so hasn't made it back to the car. .


Can't remember if you have a bottle on this or not but maybe some spray just to get the energy up would be worth it. As I'm sure you've over researched everything on the car it may just come down to the fact its one little thing giving you stupid problems.


I've even heard of people connecting a long stainless line to a solenoid and then welding the other end to the header collector and dumping raw gas into the turbine housing to make big explosions which makes heat and turns gas turbines. When it comes down to it this is all a turbo is just a big gas turbine.


Since you live down there maybe a call to kelford cams to there tech line might help and maybe some custom grinds are in order.
 

bazeng

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Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I'm running an FP3 type cam and have been advised that it should be good for 750 or so HP.

I really think that the cam is either not dailed in correctly to suit the turbo as I haven't touched it (zero/zero).
With the GT35 it was a very broad power range.

With the new T51R SPL, it comes on very late and peaks at about the same HP as the GT35R at the same RPM.

Power quickly drops off after 6500 rpm which was similar to the GT35R.

I'm thinking, maybe the cams are currently running well and set to run well mid range but the T51R SPL is not really complimenting the cam settings so it makes crap power up and and doesn't spool enough mid range to make much power either.

I will have to retard the exhaust cam and see if it helps.

I plan to rev this 2.4L long rod motor to 9k.
Hopefully she holds together!

If the cam adjustment doesn't help, I'll be looking at either Kelfords or GSC S3 cams.

Any advise on adjusting the cams and what type of changes I should see?

I've got crappy notes here when I built the motor:
Doesn't make sense to me now that I look at it.

My notes state:

CAM ADJUSTMENT
Exhaust: 5 degree RETARD MAX / 10 degrees ADVANCE
Intake: O R ???? / ALL ???

I should have taken better notes.
It was just scribble in my notepad of what the MAX adjustments were with the HKS cam gears using a soft spring and feeling them touch the piston.

Also 5 degree RETARD isn't much at all.
Did I mean 5 marks of the CAM Gears? which actually = 10 degrees?

Very annoyed.

Anyway, I might have to dail in the cams on the engine and set the cams for max top end.

Opinions?
Advice?
 

bazeng

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Thanks Allan.

I'll be retarding my exhaust and advancing my intake on this setup based on that reading.

Also, i found some old photos when i was building the engine and found the max adjustments on my Cam gears.

I have 10 degrees retard on my exhaust and 10 degrees advance and retard on my intake.

Here is my current dyno graph with the current Cam config which suited the gt35r as it did come on much sooner.



 

Gizmovr4

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Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
366
Location
andover,NJ
Bigger turbo usually means more lag – it’s a tradeoff. The benefit of a bigger turbo is its ability to flow more air and run higher boost. Your turbo will make the most power above 40psi . What boost are you running now? What exhaust housing is on your turbo as this also affects lag? Are you logging back pressure? As far as cams I would run 280deg cams to help the velocity of air thru the motor seeing it s a 2.4l . More velocity should equate to slightly less lag – however with a turbo the size of your lag is to be expected. You will need to use antilag and perhaps some nitrous thru first gear to get the car to leave the line hard – then the key is to not lift to shift in order to keep the car up on boost .


In 431 with the gt42 we used nitrous to get the car on the converter and thru first gear to get it up on boost. Best 60ft even with the nitrous on was a 1.5x without the nitrous a lame 2.5x. With the smaller gt37 turbo car would 60ft in the 1.37 range without nitrous. The tradeoff – smaller turbo – more power down low dropping off up top … bigger turbo more power up top lag down low…
 
Last edited:

onesickcrx

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Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
1,076
Location
NY
If you had a dyno sheet with rpm that would be very helpful. Why does your car drop off so hard at around 6000 rpm? My 35r pulled to 9 and wanted to keep going, since your turbo is bigger it shouldn't fall off like that... I mean your still making 25 pounds of boost and yet your horse power dropped 50kW... Might want to start by just degreeing your cams again I think that would be step one.

Quoting bazeng:
180 kph is about the 6000 rpm mark

 

bazeng

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quoting gizmovr4:</font><hr />
Bigger turbo usually means more lag – it’s a tradeoff. The benefit of a bigger turbo is its ability to flow more air and run higher boost. Your turbo will make the most power above 40psi . What boost are you running now? What exhaust housing is on your turbo as this also affects lag? Are you logging back pressure? As far as cams I would run 280deg cams to help the velocity of air thru the motor seeing it s a 2.4l . More velocity should equate to slightly less lag – however with a turbo the size of your lag is to be expected. You will need to use antilag and perhaps some nitrous thru first gear to get the car to leave the line hard – then the key is to not lift to shift in order to keep the car up on boost .


In 431 with the gt42 we used nitrous to get the car on the converter and thru first gear to get it up on boost. Best 60ft even with the nitrous on was a 1.5x without the nitrous a lame 2.5x. With the smaller gt37 turbo car would 60ft in the 1.37 range without nitrous. The tradeoff – smaller turbo – more power down low dropping off up top … bigger turbo more power up top lag down low…

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Great advice. We have dry ice which brings the turbo on much sooner. Will try it on the next tune once we get these injectors sorted. Nlts is fine with the dog box. I think this turbo needs boost to make more power for sure....
 

bazeng

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Quoting onesickcrx:
If you had a dyno sheet with rpm that would be very helpful. Why does your car drop off so hard at around 6000 rpm? My 35r pulled to 9 and wanted to keep going, since your turbo is bigger it shouldn't fall off like that... I mean your still making 25 pounds of boost and yet your horse power dropped 50kW... Might want to start by just degreeing your cams again I think that would be step one.

Quoting bazeng:
180 kph is about the 6000 rpm mark





I think it is definitely in the Cam timing. We never played with it because we were happy with the previous curve on the previous turbo.
The characteristics of the engine has changed completely with this new turbo.

Ill keep you updated on the progress.
 

bazeng

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Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
So i retarded the exhaust cam by 8 degrees and intake cam by 4 degrees.
Managed to get a tune in yesterday.

Redline 7500rpm


 

bazeng

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Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Power band has opened up extremely...

Previous Cam timing = power from 160kph to 180kph.
New Cam timing = power band from 180kph to 220kph.
Plus dry ice = power band from 160kph to 220kph.

I think with the graph, wee are maxing put the cams.

Opinions?
 

thecman02

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Nov 3, 2007
Messages
917
Location
Kalamazoo,MI
You said you wanted to rev 9k. What's the power curve look like past 7500? I had good luck getting top end out of my car by reducing my overlap a little bit. If your curve stays relatively flat I'd just increase the boost. You could make more power up top with cams at the same boost but your just going to give up more down low. Its a vicious cycle of give and take.
 
Last edited:

bazeng

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Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
2,520
Location
Melbourne, Australia
It was only revved to 7500 rpm.
Since it wasn't making any more power, we didn't really need to rev it.

I could try and advance the intake cam 2 degrees.
Leave the exhaust cam retarded at 8 degrees.

Or increase the boost as rpm increases to maintain some sort of power curve and not just a flat line.

But overall I think the power is sufficient.
Hopefully it can get me into the high 9's.
 

EMX5636

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Jun 28, 2008
Messages
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Location
Bucks County, PA
If that's U.S. HP, it seems way low for a T51R. I'm looking to get into the 10's with similar HP this season, but I'm full weight on street tires. Might need a bit more for 9's on a 5speed car. Same boost as before? What kind of ignition timing are you running?
 
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