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Yet another possible brake upgrade solution

curtis

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
I'll make this quick and easy.

Neighbor has a 97 Cougar special edition. 4.6, IRS rear suspension and a 12 inch brake package with vented rear disks and single piston front cast iron calipers.
He wants wheels
Finds bullet style torque thrust d wheels.. 8 inch. Actually look good by the car
problem they no fit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Mustang are 5 on 4.5 where the cougar is a 5 on 4.25 or something
Solution. I located my 13 inch cobra rotors on his rear hub and milled 5 new holes for the studs. Rear done
Front the hub is tapered so I can't mill them
We ran to the junkyard today and he was getting hubs from a Crown vic or anything he could find that would match up the same depth and bearing id. Fords just change sheetmetal most Fords have interchangeable parts
Well while he was messing with the crown vic I yell stop come here.


The 04 I guess Mustang I was standing by had PBR aluminum calipers but 11 inch rotors. Car had a new set of pads and new rotors like it was put on and a week later went off an embankment..... Scratch head they look like my LS1 PBR calipers I have for mine. We pulled the stuff then found a cougar and ripped it apart and tried everything. It all bolts up.


We come home and he tries the 12 inch rotors on his with the PBR twin pistons. They work..... So I take one of the calipers over to the shop and compare. Piston DIA is the same in both calipers and almost identical to the LS1 the arch where the rotor lives looks the same. The Mustang has 6 cooling fins where the LS1 have 8. Now the LS1 pistons are spread apart a little more between the two bores and the 3 fingers I call them that hold pressure from the outside pad is a little different look but If your wanting a LS1 and cobra front rotor brake combo instead of anything else might want to walk over in the Ford section at the junkyard and look around.


Not 1000% on these yet but will compare closer tomorrow and dig out my ron's brackets and make sure they bolt up.


Now examples I found on ebay
The GT ones not the ones that say cobra but they may work since there PBR

page down for good pictures


I'm actually going to look at his rear tomorrow we compared the hat height of the fronts to the rears and they are deeper but so is ours. I really wouldn't mind a vented disk in the rear. He's considering putting 13 cobra rotors up front now and thought the 12's might fit in the back. We'll see how that works maybe nothing more than a simple bracket to move his rear calipers up. and to the correct step distance. If I learn anything to better the VR4 I'll add to all this info. Enjoy.
 

CutlassJim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
1,698
Location
Manchester, NH
I haven't tried any brake upgrades on my Galant but I did go from stock single piston cast iron calipers and 11 rotors to and F-body setup ( dual piston AL calipers and 12" rotors) on my GTP. It was a direct bolt on for me. I am a huge fan of those calipers as they were super light and the 12" rotor slowed the porker of a car down no problem repeatedly. Plus they can be had CHEAP these days. One thing the F body guys do is get CTSV rotors and calipers because they also bolt right up so if you're going through the trouble of getting F body brackets and want HUGE brakes (I think 14") then this could be another option for you. Oh and I ran EBC Greenstuffs that sucked donkey balls.


Random GTP pics
DSCF2032.jpg


DSCN1415.jpg


DSCN1401.jpg


DSCN1402.jpg


DSCN1404.jpg


DSCN1416.jpg


For size comparison

DSCN1363.jpg


DSCN1361.jpg


Oh and I ran DSM wheels and slicks on the GTP so the bolt pattern of that rotor is 5X4.5, maybe a viable option for those that don't mind "just" a 12" rotor.
 

89Mirageman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
2,502
Location
Stantonsburg, NC
Curtis, I am pretty sure these are the same calipers that came on the Ford Five Hundred Limiteds. I picked up a pair about a year ago and tried to sell them. I'm currently looking for a rotor that I can cram under my 16 x 8 3000GT wheels and put them on the colt. Wonder if one of those 1 1/16" Galant M/C's will be large enough? Please update this with whatever you come up with.
 

thedsmguy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
1,785
Location
Vancouver Washington
All I can say is............. Crap, I wish you were my neighbor!

Thank you once again Curtis. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
 

curtis

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Try living with a bad back. You just learn to do without sleep and tell everyone you'll sleep when your dead.
 

curtis

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
More info.

The rear rotors on the vr4 have a hat depth from the surface where the wheels sits to the rotor face of about 40 inches. Hard to tell with wheels on the car perfect and no way to jack it up to much around the car. Anyway the rear on the cougar has a hat depth of 26mm to the same points and are 10 inch in dia with a narrow vent. When you measure from the inside of the vent pretending the vent and the front rotor is gone it ends up being 39/40 by eyeballing. I really think by spreading he pads out all the way and maybe some massaging of the caliper bracket and 4 holes for the studs mill/drilled or opening pthe 5 on 4.45 to 5 on 4.5 the vent rear disks will bolt up fine. He bought rears already new so I'll keep the old ones and can experiment when the time comes.


Now it sounds like when I say drill/mill out lug nut holes its no big deal.

Well it is. These are cast and a butter knife could drill the holes. the hard part is just locating center. Best way I've found is get a set of center punches. Its just a machined pin with a sharp point in the center, find the one thats perfect and if a little small just wrap with electrical tape over and over till it fits then hit with a hammer. Just place on a bench the take your old ones and place on top upside down. measure the center hole until its perfect, take a pencil and draw the circles for the lugs then drill small first and work your way up.


ebay link for the 97 cougar rears
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Quoting curtis:
Try living with a bad back.



yer front ain't all dat either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fawkd.gif
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
I was working on this awhile back, (before I drug out a different project)

`05 cayenne six pots
( Brembo monoblock six pots, less than ten pounds with pads.)


Mated with audi s8 rotors (they drop right on) and the fronts are done


Using the cheeky/3kgtvr4 trailing arms (with their twin pots and integral drum style e-brakes) for the the rears will round out the package.

You can also use the s-6 wagon vented rotors/4 pots on the rear to step up/match the oversize fronts to get a little of the bias/balance back. ... just gotta make some brackets .... (wanna get right on that? kthx! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fawkd.gif )

Mated with your q45 master (good find Curtis!) and you're done

 
Last edited:

curtis

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Quoting toybreaker:
Quoting curtis:
Try living with a bad back.



yer front ain't all dat either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fawkd.gif




HA HA.............. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fawkd.gif
 

Whoodoo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
927
Location
Binghamton, NY
Those Cayenne brakes look like they have tiny pistons. Do you have any info on total piston area? The 3kgt fronts I was playing with last summer look bigger, but it might be a lack of reference in the picture.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
iirc the six pot's total piston area was only slightly more than the 3kgtvr4 units.
 

123abc

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
144
Location
Winona, MN
For what its worth, I have ls1 f body calipers on the front of my 1g along with 300zx rotors.

click
 
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curtis

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
11,892
Location
Clarksville TN
Hey if you'll notice above toybreaker thanked me for the info on the Q45 master cylinder. do a search all the info is there in the thread from years ago. Also it has come to light the big bodied galants have a large master but haven't looked into that yet.
 

JSchleim18

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Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
4,801
Location
Long Island, NY
3rd Gen Eclipse master cylinder are 1 1/16" bore direct bolt on
 

boostx

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Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,326
Location
Orlando, FL
Quoting 123abc:
For what its worth, I have ls1 f body calipers on the front of my 1g along with 300zx rotors.

click



I total forgot I have a set of those calipers. I was going to use on my VR4
 
Last edited:

belize1334

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Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
This brings up an interesting question. I notice that the camaro calipers are interchangeable with the PBR calipers that people use with bigger kits. But, they have a different casting, aren't quite as rigid, and also have a bigger bore. The question is, could the PBR calipers be rebored to use the larger bore pistons from the camaro calipers? That would increase front pressure a bit and help restore the correct bias when using Cobra/vetter front/rear.

It also means that the camaro caliper with 300zx rotors could be replaced by cobra calipers with the same rotors, that'd keep the EXACT same front braking torque while increasing the fade resistance.
 

123abc

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Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
144
Location
Winona, MN
Actually, when you modify the Fbody caliper brackets like I did to bolt them to my 1g, you can take c5 and early c6 Vette calipers and they fit perfect. Advantage being a slightly smaller piston size and they say Corvette. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

As of right now, with my junk stock rear calipers, my fronts lock up super easy. Next, I want to make some brackets so I can mount rear calipers from the same Fbody and use rear 300zx rotors as well. In all honesty, I've not run into a master cylinder issue that would be fixed be having a larger bore. A bigger bore just means more pedal travel, right?
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,316
Location
Bozeman, MT
^^ More pedal travel and more clamping force for a given input pressure.

The stock setup is very forward biased already which is why I keep searching for good ways to upgrade the rear. The C4 rear brake upgrade is a nice option except that it overshoots and you end up with too much rear bias, even running 13" front rotors. As far as I can tell, there are really only two good solutions for a balanced upgrade:

1) Camaro/C4 rear calipers with 11.55" camaro rotors paired with the biggest front brakes you can find to try to balance the huge rear bias.

2) Stock rear brakes with any front upgrade which increases rotor diameter while decreasing clamping force in an attempt to retain stock or less than stock front braking torque. The camaro calipers have bigger pistons than OEM so you'd need smaller than OEM rotors. The vette/Cobra calipers have 38.1mm or 40.5mm pistons depending on the year, both of which are smaller than OEM. I'm actually thinking that the earlier 38.1mm paired with a 12.36" 3si rotor would decrease forward bias to both improve the balance and increase front fade resistance.
 
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