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FMIC = Lean and Knock......... on E85?!

WaRrIoRs16

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Ferndale, WA
Mods:91 GVR4 - 3" intake - Speed Density - V3 - 2g ported EM - Evo3 16G - Crushed 1g BOV - Tubular O2 Housing - 3" O2 housing back exhaust - Hallman MBC - Walbro 255HP - AFPR at 37 PSI - FIC 1050s - ACT 2600 - Fidanza Aluminum Lightweight Flywheel - Autometer Boost & EGT gauges - K&N AF - Odyssey pc925 - "Bling Bling" battery tray - 1g shifter - 3G lifters - FIAV Bypassed - Removed Emissions - Slimfan - NGK BPR7ES - NGK Wires - Tial 38mm Wastegate - PLX M300 Tuner Edition WB - E85 - ETS FMIC

So I was on my stock intercooler setup with a 1g intake pipe and I'm on E85 on Wednesday. I was able to do WOT pulls on stock timing and stock Fuel tables/sliders with no knock at 20psi. I just finished installing my ETS FMIC kit and a new intake pipe and now I can't get past 3500 rpms and I pick up a sh*t ton of knock. Stock fuel and timing settings I was always pegged rich, lower than 10.0:1 AFR gasoline ratio. Now I was just lean, around 12.0 AFR and I was getting a bunch of knock. I can see that I'm flowing more air, so maybe I need to add more fuel, but does this sound right?

I followed the instructions from ETS on how to install the kit, and then I just reversed the process for putting everything back together. Only difference was I had to tee my halman off my bov line. BLT only showed my PCV valve leaking and my hallman bleeder. I was only able to make 3 pulls because during the review of my third pull, a police officer pulled up and talked to me for a little bit. The last pull I added some fuel via the sliders. I intended on posting a log, but I just realized I can't figure out how to.
 

Diego

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Dec 9, 2007
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2,132
Location
In a van down by the river, Iowa
PNW guys chime in... TurboWop in, 5,4,3,2........
 

WaRrIoRs16

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Ferndale, WA
I guess the colder air and larger tubes improving the flow was enough to make me go lean. I just did a pull with my fuel sliders all moved up to +10% and I pinned my WB at 10 AFR and did not get over 1* of knock retard. I'm switching to the 2g timing table and will go from there.
 

You have to remember that E85 has a much different stoichometric AFR. Gasoline has an AFR of 14.7:1. E85 is 9.76:1. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, pinging or knocking. You need to keep in mind that you are shooting for higher afr's with e85.

Make sure you adjust your stoichometric ratio box and that should help you out a bit.

Those numbers that you have around 12:1 would be a little leaner than what we desire 11:1 on regular gasoline but not for e85. Those ratio's are not too lean. Most guys tuning on e85 are running at least 12:1 and 20* plus of timing advance.

Keep at it and you will figure it out. Shoot for AFR's in the 12.5-12.8 range and watch that knock dissapear. Also try a NGK8 plug instead of the NGK7, or gap your 7 a little tighter. With the "leaner" mixtures and adding the timing you will be alot happier.
 
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1badgvr4

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Jul 2, 2006
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1,242
Location
georgia
Is the knock only happening during the wot pull? Set that fuel pressure to 43 and try and take some timing out at whatever point your seeing the knock in your logs. Set what ever boost you want then get the afr's to about 12.0 wot then start adding timing back in until it knocks but don't go crazy.
 

WaRrIoRs16

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Ferndale, WA
How do I upload a log on this forum? My AFRs are up in the 12s and I was getting knock. Today I bumped up my fuel sliders and throughout the entire band and my knock went way down to how it was when I first switched to e85. My AFR on my one pull with more fuel today were below 10 and I only picked up little spots of .4* and .7* retard. I got some new fuel and timing tables that I'm going to go experiment with now. Thank you for your responses, I am all ears to any advice.
 

WaRrIoRs16

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Ferndale, WA
Oh and the base fuel pressure I kind of don't want to mess with because I heard that makes your fuel pump work harder and currently I'm on a single wally 255hp and haven't had a chance to install my rewire kit. But If you still think I should, I'll give it a shot.
 

afr's in the 10's is way too rich for e85. It isn't knocking because it is super rich now.

But with afr's in the 10's your car will be slower than it would be on pump gas.

Check your knock sensor to make sure it's working properly and not "gooey" also try the plugs, gap them tighter or switch to the 8's like i suggested above. Get those WOT afr's in the 12.3-12.8 range with lower timing advance then bump the timing untill it starts knocking.

Also where is your WB connected? Location is important on e85! Good luck , keep us updated.
 

3rdstrikedsm

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Feb 17, 2008
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Location
32159, FL
12.0 is rich on e-85 for sure as the 4g63 likes to be ran at 12.0-12.2 on pump gas and 12.6ish on e-85 whith aggressive timing maps.

You are most likely getting rich knock so lean it out some and see if it goes away which it should and if not the problem is else where.
 

WaRrIoRs16

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Ferndale, WA
Alright I have messed with all kinds of different timing adjustments, I have had my AFRs in the lows 10s, and I have gapped down to .020 on the bpr7es. When I first put on my FMIC, my AFRs were in the 12s and I was still knocking. I really wish I could show some of you with link my logs. I have been getting some help and it was just determined that my fuel was not accurately being measured.

My injectors came with a flow data sheet and it showed they flowed 1080cc at 43.5psi fuel pressure. I asked if I should put them in as 1080s and if I should adjust my base fuel pressure and I was told that that the 43.5psi is a standard measurement and that I should input them as 1080s and just leave my base fuel as 37.1 both in link and on the regulator. Well I was just informed that this is incorrect and I needed to change my global or actually change my fuel pressure to 43.5. So I decided to just change my fuel pressure.

After doing this and resetting my fuel trims, I got my combinedFT close to 0% by adjusting deadtime. I also reset my VE table and after running the SDadjust(combinedFT), there were no new suggested values at idle; so I'm guessing that is a good start. I will do an hour drive today and make use the SDadjust today with my openloopthresholds changed to give more closed loop data.

I also realized using the spreadsheet from the ecmlink forums, it makes the wideband and estimated afr match up. But I used this spreadsheet and I didn't even think about how my wideband doesn't drop below 10, and the stock maxoct table targets 9 AFRs. I know that is very rich , but I was getting a bunch of knock if I bumped it up. I'm hoping with my new fuel settings that I will now be able to get atleast into the 10 or higher AFR area and dial in my VE table. I'm going to try and do some WOT pull later tonight when its a little cooler. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for the input.
 

Overkill

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Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
48
Location
Berthoud, CO
Sounds like phantom knock, but your tune is definitely off regardless.
 

WaRrIoRs16

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Ferndale, WA
I'm not going to turn the boost down below 20psi, if I can't get it figured out at that pressure then I don't want the e85 and I'll just give up. I did some pulls tonight with the stock wastegate, a plastic washer on the knock sensor, and I wrapped my flex section on my DP with heat wrap to prevent any chances of metal on metal.

In the mid 10 AFRs I get barely any knock, but as I move it up I start to get 1* to 3* retard. I went up to 11.5 and I was still getting knock. The only full 3rd gear pull from 2k to 7k with no knock was when I was around 10.5 AFR.

I'm on the stock 2g timing table and I'm using the fuel sliders to adjust fuel. My VE table is unchanged from the factory settings at WOT. Using the spreadsheet was not helping to tune my WOT VE table.
 

I had a similar issue when i swtiched to e85, I ended up switching out the fuel filter out of desperation and the knock cleared up. I have now been told e85 can shake loose containments in the fuel system. Might be worth a shot for ya, good luck.
 

4thStroke

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Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,864
Location
Vancouver, WA
There are definitely different schools of thought here.

Don't switch to 8 range plugs, ethanol burns cool enough, 7s will do fine and won't foul as quick.

Are you sure it's not phantom knock? If you increase timing, does knock also increase? If you retard timing, does the knock go away? When are you seeing knock? On spool up? Out the top? How many degrees of retard are you seeing? If you are seeing knock at 6000 RPM, turn the knock sensor off until 6200 RPM and see what it picks up. If it picks up knock still, then pay attention. If not, play some more and see what you can get away with, it may not be real knock after all. It seems that sometimes phantom knock carries itself out. It you see 3* retard and it tapers down to 2* and then 1* and then goes away towards the top, it's a good chance it's phantom knock.

Ethanol doesn't usually like to knock, when I see knock with ethanol, I don't pay much attention to it.

I've seen several times that the fuel advertised as E85 was not E85 at all, but rather E70 and the like which may factor in to your knock and also throw off your acceptable AFR targets. There are simple ways to test this, search online and you should be able to find the method.

I never tune for anything leaner that 12.5 with E85. I like to keep it in the safe 12.2 range, you won't gain much of anything by going leaner than that. Leaning out ethanol doesn't have the same gains in power like gasoline does.
 

thecman02

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Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
917
Location
Kalamazoo,MI
^
In the 10-11.5 AFR's, I got rich knock quite often. Around 11.8 was the magical transition point.
 
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