dsmtalontsi95
(Herdgate)
05/21/06 06:40 PM
water and methanol

Do you burn the methanol or is it just too cool down the charge? Also I see that it has a reservoir for it. Do you mix the two together? Finally how would you install it, on the fuel rail I would assume. thanks. http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=&cat=4554

chance


Eighty9TSI
(touché)
05/21/06 08:12 PM
Re: water and methanol

No, not the fuel rail. Its injected into the throttle body/intake pipe before the throttle body (maybe even the manifold if it calls for it) and it mists the solution into the air, pushes it into atomization even furthur and then gets sucked into the cylinder where it goes boom. It then absorbs some of the combustion energy and effectively cools off the 'explosion' that is occuring. Water is pretty hard to burn, so having to flash the water droplets into steam costs energy (its not free) and thereby steals some of the combustion heat and lets the cylinder burn cooler while adding all that extra air, that under normal conditions, would have caused excessive cylinder temps which would/could contribute to detonation/pre ignition.

I figured I would explain the process so you would get it inside and out.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 04:57 AM
Re: water and methanol

My good deed for today:
H2O


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 05:05 AM
Re: water and methanol

you can also use HEAT from your local auto store

if you want to take full advantage of W/I you need to dynotune it, not just install it. Youll lose HP by installing it, then you need to retune it on the dyno.


ken inn
(BJ Titsengolf lifer)
05/22/06 07:45 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

if you want to take full advantage of W/I you need to dynotune it, not just install it. Youll lose HP by installing it, then you need to retune it on the dyno.




huh? where do you get this from? i had water injection for years. all i saw was knock eliminated(more timing, more boost, more power), less fuel needed(again, leads to more boost, more power), lower injector duty cycles(more boost, yada, yada), super clean intake tract, intercooler, entire combustion chamber, valves, spark plugs(more efficient intake, intercooler, therefore more boost, yada, yada).


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 07:50 AM
Re: water and methanol

Because I work at a dyno? we install tune SNOW kits daily.

Yes you are right. Your a/f is going to lower a certain point depending on what PSI you are using, nozzle size, and method of spray (boost, rpm, gear, map, etc.)

All I was saying was that installing it and driving off with no additional tuning will make him lose power. He needs to watch his timing and knock on a dyno while upping the boost and keeping his a/fs safe. Usually to the same a/f as before pending he was safely tuned.. 11.0-11.9 is what we usually try for at full boost to redline.

Your post went along fine with mine, so Im missing how you dont understand what I was saying. Youve had it for years, but not seen your a/fs drop WAY down after an install? Thats an instant loss in power if your boost level is the same. If you still dont beleive me, just take it to a dyno and do a before/after with same correction factors temp cooldown etc.


steveGalant VR4.org Administrator
(Key Fob Guy)
05/22/06 07:57 AM
Re: water and methanol

I think what Ken is saying, is that once you install it of course you are going to increase the boost. It is going to enable you to make more power, even without doing a full tune on a dyno. Or, lets say you're running 20psi but you're getting knock. If installing WI eliminates the knock, you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 08:13 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.




No it wont.

Im not trying to be argumentative with you guys. We all know lower A/Fs is less power, when you start raising boost or pulling fuel it makes your A/F higher/leaner. So when you install a W/I kit, (depending on kit/size/etc.) it could drop lets say 1 whole point in A/f, with less knock.

Now if you leaned it out with a AFC, to the same as previous A/F, it would be a little more power becauase of the cleaner higher flowing chambers and less knock.

But installing W/I and touching nothing after will net you less power. Thats my point, sorry if it sounds like im arguing with you. He didnt say if he was raising boost after, and Im unsure if he has a wideband or not, so my post was simply helpful info.


Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/22/06 08:25 AM
Re: water and methanol

Well you are going to get argued with a lot if you keep saying it has to be dyno tuned.

It's a losing battle, sorry. You don't need a dyno. There is nothing to tune. Install it and turn up the boost until it knocks the turn it back down a hair. No one in there right mind would install a WI kit and leave everything else the same, it would be like installing a MBC and not turning up the boost. Unless they were on the ragged edge and just used the WI to get things safe again.

Since you do work at a dyno could you post a before and after dyno chart of a Turbo car that lost power with a WI kit and the proper sized Jet installed. With nothing else changed of course. I am just curious what kind of cars are losing power with a Mod that makes the intake air colder.


steveGalant VR4.org Administrator
(Key Fob Guy)
05/22/06 08:35 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

Quote:

you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.




No it wont.





Way to quote only the part that serves you.

Quote:

If installing WI eliminates the knock, you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.




So tell me. Lets say I crank the 13g up to 20 lbs, and I start getting 43 counts of knock and timing gets pulled waaay back. Now I install water injection, which eliminates the knock, therefore timing doesn't get pulled. Its not going to make more power? Please. This is a bit exaggerated to make the point. I'm not saying you could run 20psi on a 13g with WI, but the principle is the point.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 08:44 AM
Re: water and methanol

I was quoting the only part of what you said I was referring. Is that wrong? Jesus christ what is your deal?

Yes you would get less knock. But youre a/fs would be still lower so much that the power LOSS is more then the GAIN in knock reduction. Just trust me on that one. You dont gain a shitload of horsepower by reducing knock. You gain a shitload by a higher a/f, which is either A. turning up boost or B. leaning out with AFC (of course there are small factors like PnP that could as well but you get my point)


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 08:49 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

No one in there right mind would install a WI kit and leave everything else the same, it would be like installing a MBC and not turning up the boost. Unless they were on the ragged edge and just used the WI to get things safe again.




What if his boost is as high as it will go before hitting fuel cut, and his knock is bad and he has an extreme carbon build up problem? W/I could fix that, then use an AFC to add the extra fuel to compensate. Same boost.

Quote:

Since you do work at a dyno could you post a before and after dyno chart of a Turbo car that lost power with a WI kit and the proper sized Jet installed. With nothing else changed of course. I am just curious what kind of cars are losing power with a Mod that makes the intake air colder.




Sure I could do that. Its more common in forced induction, as we have done a few Vipers and they had no power loss. A stock evo, sti, wrx, sr20det, srt4, etc. will lose hp just be installing. How is that point not getting through to you??? It lowers your A/Fs by alot. Do you not understand what im saying, or have you never tuned a car?

Quote:

Install it and turn up the boost until it knocks the turn it back down a hair.




I should have ignored the rest after I read that. Im probably arguing with a 16 year old.


steveGalant VR4.org Administrator
(Key Fob Guy)
05/22/06 08:53 AM
Re: water and methanol

Wow. You say in other threads "I don't know anything about DSMs" but you are making some bold statements here about tuning them and how they respond to knock, and how much power you lose when timing is pulled.

Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/22/06 09:03 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

What if his boost is as high as it will go before hitting fuel cut, and his knock is bad and he has an extreme carbon build up problem? W/I could fix that, then use an AFC to add the extra fuel to compensate. Same boost.




Then he is stupid. Fuel cut is easily overcome with a proper chip, you shouldn't be knocking at all, and carbon build up? Are you serious. Sure WI will clean it, but thats not what we are talking about. We are talking about your claim that a properly installed WI kit with the proper sze jet will lower power. I don't see this happening except in maybe very unusual circumstances. However like I said, Anyone who doesn't raise the boost after installing a kit just wasted there money. Unless of course they are a moron and were knocking to all hell before the kit and are finally doing it right, in which case they probably wouldn't touch the boost. Yes would make more power since the car wouldn't be knocking to death.


Quote:


Sure I could do that. Its more common in forced induction, as we have done a few Vipers and they had no power loss. A stock evo, sti, wrx, sr20det, srt4, etc. will lose hp just be installing. How is that point not getting through to you??? It lowers your A/Fs by alot. Do you not understand what im saying, or have you never tuned a car?





Just post the dyno sheet.

Quote:


I should have ignored the rest after I read that. Im probably arguing with a 16 year old.




Yeah I am 16, good one. Tough guy.

What is wrong with turning up the boost until it knocks then turning it back down. It may be old school but there is no other way to find out what the car will take. A count of knock or 2 isn't going to blow the car up anyway. You obviously have not been around DSM's long.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 10:04 AM
Re: water and methanol

i know on the subaru forums that a person had there car tuned on pump with no knock and turned on the injection and lost power. If your car is properly tuned and then you add WI you will lose power. But on my subaru i had a rough tune and used WI for a day and the car seemed to love it. If your getting knock of course WI should help that, since your tune is most likly too aggressive

Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/22/06 12:00 PM
Re: water and methanol

Did said person try different Jets, perhaps that one was to big if he didn't intend to up the boost.

ken inn
(BJ Titsengolf lifer)
05/22/06 12:50 PM
Re: water and methanol

in the early days of wi and the galant, my wi was not sophisticated, basically a pump, nozzle(s), and a hobbs switch. i was experimenting with things like what boost level, what size nozzle, nozzle placement, things like that. the stock intercooler/piping was still on the car. i even had an electric fan sucking air thru the intercooler. all i had was a jumptronix a/f, egt, and vac/boost gauge. mbc, still had stock injectors, fuel pump, yada,yada. the first few runs i had the wi coming in right at about 0-2 lbs boost, and the very first nozzle was way too big, when the wi came on, the motor started to bog. the effect on the a/f was astounding. .89-.9 before, then easy .99- when the wi hit. i would go down on nozzle size, and move the activiation to higher boost levels, i finally settled on 8 lbs, i forget what size nozzle, because then the car got like rre pipes, starquest, then rs, then rre griffin intercoolers. went 2 nozzles, then 1, then 2, etc. also got like a datalogger, afc, different turbo, etc. so, yah, too much wi will bog the motor, too soon has a similar effect, but not as pronounced. if you got knock, then eliminate it, that alone will increase power.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 02:40 PM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

Did said person try different Jets, perhaps that one was to big if he didn't intend to up the boost.



No there was no point. They did one run on the dyno to see what would happen and like the tuner thought they lost power. So they leaned it out and added more boost and most likly timing too. I'll do a search and see if i can find it for ya. IMO its not worth using just water. I like a 50/50 mix of water and meth thats where you can start to make some serious power without knock.


Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/22/06 02:52 PM
Re: water and methanol

Ok so they increased the Boost, that works too.

However even on a stock car I'd bet the proper sized jet will show an increase in power.


I agree, running just water is cutting yourself short. You need to get into the fuel side if it to see all the benefits.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 02:59 PM
Re: water and methanol

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661586&highlight=power+lost
i dont think you need to be a memeber to view this but if thats the case ill copy and paste it if needed
Paul
Edit: They didn't up the boost they just leaned it out and added some timing. They also feel that you will lose power without a tune


turbowop
(Hard Snarker)
05/22/06 03:53 PM
Re: water and methanol

In for ban.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 06:24 PM
Re: water and methanol

Ban for what? Offering advice? PROVE ME WRONG.

You guys are unreal. Youre right, I dont know much about DSMs. But I am not new to motors or forced induction whatsoever. Its simple physics, a 4g63 is nothing special.

Yes I think tuning until you hear knock is stupid. You should start low and slowly monitor as going up. But if thats works for you, then by all means do it. Im not trying to get you all to dyno, im just saying if you want to take full advantages then thats the right way.

Now, you question my credibility, do any of you have some reason to prove me wrong that installing a W/I kit and touching nothing else will lose power? Please do so, I will prove you wrong again.

Now several of you have made some correct and smart replies, thats great. Thats what were here for, thats why people ask questions; because they dont know.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 06:27 PM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

They didn't up the boost they just leaned it out and added some timing. They also feel that you will lose power without a tune




Thank you.


turbowop
(Hard Snarker)
05/22/06 06:43 PM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

Now, you question my credibility




I can think of a few past posts/threads you've made as reason why many of us here question your credibility. Now you're an expert?

"OMFG prove me wrong..." Nobody cares.


Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/22/06 06:46 PM
Re: water and methanol

Someone just close this mess. It's like pulling teeth around here.

I will accept the fact that a stock car, at stock boost, with barely any mods running piggy rich already with a huge jet may lose power. However that is Wrong and it shouldn't take a dyno for someone to know that. I mean it's simple. It's like putting a Fp3575 Turbo on a stock DSM, it's modding ass backwards. Of course it's not going to work out well. Why would we argue that, it would be like me defending 5" IC piping on a 16g car.

What I am arguing is this, a car that actually runs a fair amount of boost and has some mods will ALWAYS benefit from a Wi kit with no other changes. Given the proper size jet is installed.

As for my Knock tuning comment, all you did was say what I said but in a sugar coated way. I said turn it up until it knocks, then turn it down. You say go slowly and yada yada yada. Same difference man.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 07:07 PM
Re: water and methanol

Right, Im not so much arguing with you. But even on a modded higher boost car you instantly drop HP until you pull fuel or raise boost. Thats all im saying. Of course most people know you should do that when you install, but I was not sure (and still not sure for that matter) that the POSTER knows this. Im sure he finds my info helpful. He clearly doesnt know too much about w/i, just read his first post. Im helping, and you guys are just arguing with me because you dont like me or dont want to beleive what I say.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 07:09 PM
Re: water and methanol

I guess I could have worded it, "IMO you should dynotune it after you install it" instead of saying he NEEDs to dyno tune it. I just assumed he needed it based on his first post.

That make it better?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 07:26 PM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

Someone just close this mess. It's like pulling teeth around here.

I will accept the fact that a stock car, at stock boost, with barely any mods running piggy rich already with a huge jet may lose power. However that is Wrong and it shouldn't take a dyno for someone to know that. I mean it's simple. It's like putting a Fp3575 Turbo on a stock DSM, it's modding ass backwards. Of course it's not going to work out well. Why would we argue that, it would be like me defending 5" IC piping on a 16g car.

What I am arguing is this, a car that actually runs a fair amount of boost and has some mods will ALWAYS benefit from a Wi kit with no other changes. Given the proper size jet is installed.

As for my Knock tuning comment, all you did was say what I said but in a sugar coated way. I said turn it up until it knocks, then turn it down. You say go slowly and yada yada yada. Same difference man.



Did you read the link i posted


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/22/06 09:49 PM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

Quote:

you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.




No it wont.

Im not trying to be argumentative with you guys. We all know lower A/Fs is less power, when you start raising boost or pulling fuel it makes your A/F higher/leaner. So when you install a W/I kit, (depending on kit/size/etc.) it could drop lets say 1 whole point in A/f, with less knock.

Now if you leaned it out with a AFC, to the same as previous A/F, it would be a little more power becauase of the cleaner higher flowing chambers and less knock.

But installing W/I and touching nothing after will net you less power. Thats my point, sorry if it sounds like im arguing with you. He didnt say if he was raising boost after, and Im unsure if he has a wideband or not, so my post was simply helpful info.




Fuel will only account for ~7% increase/decrease in power between blowing out spark from being to lean and wetting plugs to the point they won't fire. By adjusting fuel with a VPC or AFC you are inadvertantly adjusting ignition timing by changing how the ECU reads load. Ignition timing has a HUGE effect on power.

Water injection is a patch. Nothing more, nothing less. It works, sometimes it works well.

Tuning by knock doesn't work. Once you change the internals of your engine it no longer resonate in the same frequency that the ECU was told to read a knock. Forged parts ring louder then non forged parts. Forged parts of differen't alloy's ring at different tones. Hence the reason knock sensors are not the "proper" way of tuning. BUT people are sucessfull (mostly) with tuning that way. I have had cars on the dyno that the knock sensor is going balistic and the car isn't knocking. I have had OTHER cars on the dyno knocking like CRAZY and the knock sensor ignores it. The ONLY proper way to measure knock is on a dyno compairing in steady state. But the last time I looked not everyone had a dyno dynamics, dynapack, Bosch, or water break engine dyno. Do what works for you, and if you need help enlist a certified professional.


Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/23/06 06:46 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:


Did you read the link i posted




I hadn't but I just gave it a quick glance. While it does lean towards the "it needs tuned" argument, I still don't buy that. I still stand by my argument that a car that "needs" it will gain power. These low boosting cars that aren't making tons of power or running the compressor out of it's efficiency range just aren't prime candidates for WI, imho. Anyway nothing is getting accomplished here. I think we can all agree it will make more power than pump gas by itself, how it does it is up to the end user.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/23/06 08:24 AM
Re: water and methanol

well one of the best subaru tuners does feel you will lose power. And they did it on the dyno and lost power. If you read the link it says the a/f droped a whole point. So unless your car is runing lean, too much boost, heat soaked, or knocking WI will make you lose power. When you say "needs" if your refering to one of the cases above, no shit WI is goin help.
Did I mention you will lose power with WI without a tune?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/23/06 08:26 AM
Re: water and methanol

I think the only way you would gain power simply by installing it would be if you were knocking way too much and your a/fs were through the roof so much that you were pulling insane timing. Even then, im not sure if youd make more power, but it would definately atleast run better.

steveGalant VR4.org Administrator
(Key Fob Guy)
05/23/06 08:38 AM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

Did I mention you will lose power with WI without a tune?




You guys are taking it down to the most simplistic level, ok you are right. But I think you can also agree that after installing WI a person will be able to turn up the boost further and create more power? I think we've found a compromise we can agree on.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/23/06 08:43 AM
Re: water and methanol

yea its obvious you could gain power.....with some sort of tuning

Polish
(Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger)
05/23/06 08:44 AM
Re: water and methanol

Raising the boost isn't tuning.

It's what any sane person does when they install Wi.

Steve hit the nail on the head though.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/23/06 08:47 AM
Re: water and methanol

i consider it "some sort of tuning" but i figured i would get hassled about that. Either way, if you just add WI and not do anything else you will lose power.

FYI: Just raising the boost might not be enough if your running too rich for the start.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/23/06 08:52 AM
Re: water and methanol

Too many variables, too general of arguements... I'm going to try and summarize in my opinion and then you guys can stop clashing.

Here's the deal:
After any mod, you should carefully monitor the changes and tune/adjust accordingly.

Almost every modification could result in a loss of performance under untuned circumstances. Do you have to tune it on a dyno? No, you can probably find improvement using some seat time and a logger and common sense.

Of course someone who works at a shop with a dyno is going to push for those services, that's his job. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/23/06 10:25 PM
Re: water and methanol

Quote:

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails.




With the exception of your hand.



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