**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/13/06 10:14 PM
Why remove the balance shafts?

so here is my two cents on balance shaft removal...Don't do it its not worth it...I work at Mitsubishi and have seen too many things go wrong when you remove the shafts. Think about it this way...when the engineers designed the engine they put them in there for a reason...If they were not necessary they would not have spent the money on them. Engines are balanced primarily for high r.p.m.s...so when you approach anything over 6 grand and you got mods your pushing it to the limits..you want all the balance you can get to eliminate vibrations. the extra 10-20 horse some people say you can get is bogus when your engine blows up...lol i've seen it happen. Now you can argue with me but do your best! again engineers aren't stupid...and they get paid to save money!

powerplay
(Yes Man)
04/13/06 10:29 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

It is not a question of additional horsepower. The balance shafts have two failure modes that take out at least the valves and possibly more. The belt brakes and takes out the timing belt and the bearings seize and cause the same thing. It is a fact and it happens. The balance shafts were put in the engine to reduce vibration. For what was anticipated to be an upscale buyer, who wanted the feel of a smoother bigger engine. Simply for comfort. If you chose to leave them in place, the belt should be changed regularly and the bearings are changed which requires the removal anyway. My engine had 138K on it when I removed mine and the bearing were in very bad shape. I was lucky and took them out before they spun. It is up to each owner what they want to do to their car. I am very happy I chose to removed them.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/13/06 10:31 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Engineers get paid to do what they are told, just like the rest of the world.
That being said, the "discerning" buyer of a quasi luxury sedan such as the VR4 would throw a fit if the engine did not run as vibration free and smooth as possible. The factory could balance all the internals within a few grams of each other and make the motor butter smooth, but this ain't no Bugatti with a 6 figure price tag.
That being said, car manufactures are run by bean counters not engineers, so when they say "Make the engine as smooth as possible as cheap as you are practically able to do" The Engineers step and say "Otay Boss!" Now of course that is way over simplified, but you get the picture.
I have owned more than one 4 banger that did not have a balance shaft anywhere near it when they built it, and those motors could spin to 10 grand IF built properly and balanced properly.
If you can eliminate the balance shafts and remove the possibility of catastrophic belt failure why not do it? I personally am not going to spin my street car past 7K. Most camshafts and turbo combos are out of breath by then for a street car.
A race car should be precision balanced IMHO anyway just due to the fact you plan on beating on it and spinning the car hard.
Now these comments are just mine,and what do I know? I'm just a dumb public servant


Barnes
(Firechicken)
04/13/06 11:31 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Read this please

quasimondo
(Running on Empty)
04/14/06 12:04 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Maybe you saw the Sport Compact car issue which featured a Galant VR-4, Mk3 Supra, and a few other old cars versus an Evo and STi. Maybe you saw the article where Daryl Samson's Galant blew the motor twice. What's not in the article is Daryl's explaination that the reason his motor went is because of the balance shafts. The first time around, it took out his oil pump, and the second time around, the leftover debris took out the bearings. It's not a matter of freeing up horsepower when the internal balance shafts are removed, it's a matter of simplifying maintenance and having one less thing to worry about with these engines.

Scroll down and look for the post under 'vr4underboost'

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but the fact that you're a Mitsu tech means nothing except for the possiblity that you might be able to hook us up with a discount for parts. I've seen my fair share of dealership techs who didn't even think the 1st generation Eclipse was all-wheel-drive, and I'm sure they had no clue that there was another VR-4 other than the 3000GT, and there's more than a handful of members here who were told that there was no such vehicle by a tech until they were brought outside and shown one.

Having said all of that, the elimination of the counter-rotating balance shafts from these engines is not a new concept, nor is it an experimental one. It's a modification that's recommended whether you have a big turbo, big injectors, and a big fuel pump or you're just puttering around with a 16G and a boost controller.

But, being the free country that it is, it's your car, you can do what you want, leave it in, take it out, makes no difference to me. Just please don't cry to us when the balance shaft belt breaks and gets jammed up in the timing belt, or when the bearings for the rear shaft sieze, lock up the oil pump, and take your engine out.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/14/06 12:23 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Ok maybe I should have said "Balanced as to make the vibrations nearly imperceptible" Vibrations won't destroy the engine, flying parts from destroyed oil pumps, or broken belts taking out other belts destroy engines.
I still think a properly balanced engine having a balance shaft, vs. utilizing one is a no brainer. If I want silky smooth, I'd own a Lexus.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/14/06 06:41 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Years ago and 16 valves etc later. I learned the hard way to eliminate the balance shafts.


Wendy


jepherz
(Too Clean)
04/14/06 06:59 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I have no experience with removing the shafts, nor them going bad, but with all do respect, sickville, I have also had a fair number of experiences with the techs at Mitsu not knowing anything. Not to say what you do or don't know, but the people on this board deal with this ONE car, with this ONE motor and drivetrain and have seen the issues with it over and over again. There is no larger collection of knowledge on these cars other than maybe Japan and it would take a number of Mitsu techs' opinions/experiences to make me believe them over some of the most knowledgeable people on this board.

With that said, I don't think vibration is good for anything; your butt and your car included. Isn't the reason for the rubber in the crank pulley to dampen vibrations from reaching other accessories on the car? Even so, given the choice of an engine being destroyed vs. some of the other small possible effects on other parts of the car, I would opt for saving the motor first.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/14/06 07:04 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Im a die hard fan of taking chances..
I am the no BALANCE SHAFT, SOLID MOTOR MOUNT, UNDERDRIVE PULLEY QUEEN!!!! bwahahaha


Wendy


Mark LaVallee
("Satan's" Wrenchman)
04/14/06 07:10 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

And I'm a Mitsubishi tech and an ASE Master. In the last fifteen years I've put 500,000 miles on various 4g63s. I've not had the misfortune of having a balance shaft belt let go on one of mine, but I've seen it at least a dozen times. Causing a complete failure. Which is enough to convince me that when I build 581's new motor there's one feature that will be relocated to the circular file. A precision balancing job will be included. I'll live with the slight additional vibration. I didn't buy a Mitsubishi looking for refinement. I'll drive my girlfriend's 4.0 S Type Jaguar if I want refinement.

Street Surgeon
(Professor Street Surgeon)
04/14/06 07:54 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

Im a die hard fan of taking chances..
I am the no BALANCE SHAFT, SOLID MOTOR MOUNT, UNDERDRIVE PULLEY QUEEN!!!! bwahahaha


Wendy




No, if you were the "taking chances" queen, you would do that with an ACT2900pp on a 2G 7bolt


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/14/06 08:01 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Well close enough..2900 with a 6 bolt no pwr steering or manual rack.


Wendy


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/14/06 08:07 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Street!!!! dont put any ideas on her mind she will probably do it ......lol thats what i call taking chances.....

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/14/06 08:16 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Yes, vibration is bad for bushings and the frame itself, but I had the shafts out for 2.5 years and put down 20k miles. I had now problem with the engine getting destroid from unbalanced vibration. And after a awhile I got used to it anyhow.

atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/14/06 08:34 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

No amount of balancing will eliminate the vibrations that the balance shafts cancel out. They are NOT there to aid in the balancing of the rotating assembly. They are there to cancel out the normal harmonic vibrations that are inevitable in an in line 4 cylinder engine. They are only there to make the driver/passengers feel less vibration from the motor. Like Mark, I have seen plenty of BS belts broken during my 8 years as a Mitsu tech but NEVER seen a problem related to removing the shafts. The GVR4 I currently drive was purchased from the original owner after he had TWO motors spit the BS bearings out and destroy the motor. Unfortunately for him the local gas station that did the motor swap for him didn't know to remove them so it ended ruining his new motor. Another GVR4 I owned had a broken t-belt when I bought it, I fixed that and said "1000 miles on the new head and then I go in to remove the balance shafts". Unfortunately about 700 miles into it the BS bearings spun and wrecked all the bearings in the bottom end so I got to pull the trans, crank, and replace ALL the bearings in the bottom end. I will never own one of these cars with them in again and whenever I do a t-belt for someone I always recommend removing them. If not I take no responsibility for their engine's demise.

John


dsmtalontsi95
(Herdgate)
04/14/06 03:06 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

If you balance the bottom end, when you rebuild it, will that take care of ALL of the concern on both sides?

chance


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/14/06 04:23 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

No, the balancing of the rotating assembly (rods, pistons, crank, flywheel, crank pulley) has absolutely nothing to do with the vibration that the balance shafts are there to eliminate. They are purely for the comfort of the vehicle's occupants. Of course it is a good idea to balance the rotating assembly in any sort of performance application but these motors are pretty damn close right from the factory. FWIW mine isn't balanced, it sees 8000rpm a couple times a week, and has lived for 25,000 miles. When I build a good shortblock next year with aftermarket rods and pistons I will have it balanced.

John


CP
(Still lingering, kinda like a chili and beer fart)
04/14/06 06:41 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Think of it like this:

Have you ever been on a jet when they fire up the engines before takeoff? The drone/vibrations you hear at certain rpms as they build rpms are a result of the two engines being out of sinc. I've heard this at cruise as well, when the pilot doesn't have the throttles trimmed out exactly the same. This is the same type of hamonic effect you get without balance shafts, as the engine will vibrate at certain rpms...naturally.


speedyvr4
(Still looking for the forest!)
04/14/06 08:11 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Wow.I've always been torn on this subject and you guys raise alot of good points.This is one of those things that if I ever have the engine out,i will do,untill then I'll keep changing the damm belt.my.02

atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/14/06 08:13 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Don't change the belt for the front one, just take it off and leave it off. Then you'll only have to worry about the bearings on the rear one failing and not both front, rear, and front belt.

John


CO VR4
(Senior Member)
04/14/06 08:29 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I'm not sure I'd like the vibration from one shaft not rotating and one that is...

G
(JDM Unit)
04/14/06 10:58 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

so here is my two cents on balance shaft removal...Don't do it its not worth it...I work at Mitsubishi and have seen too many things go wrong when you remove the shafts. Think about it this way...when the engineers designed the engine they put them in there for a reason...If they were not necessary they would not have spent the money on them. Engines are balanced primarily for high r.p.m.s...so when you approach anything over 6 grand and you got mods your pushing it to the limits..you want all the balance you can get to eliminate vibrations. the extra 10-20 horse some people say you can get is bogus when your engine blows up...lol i've seen it happen. Now you can argue with me but do your best! again engineers aren't stupid...and they get paid to save money!




on the subject of mitsubishi's Sirius engines, could you please explain the 4g61 please ?


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/15/06 07:26 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

I'm not sure I'd like the vibration from one shaft not rotating and one that is...




Actually when Mitsu sent me to their engine classes the instructor discussed how the balance shafts work and showed a teriffic video on it. One cancels out one set of harmonics and the other cancels another so by just running the back one you will still feel less vibrations than running none. I wish I could get that video and host it somewhere, it really makes sense of a lot of the mystery behind what the shafts do and how they do it. Like G said, if they are so necessary then why aren't they present in the 4G61?

John


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/15/06 09:44 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

i knew subject this would entail some strong opinions..and i'm glad to see both sides as well. BUT, don't dicriminate me for being a Mitsu tech! i don't go around and say other people are stupid" anyways..on another note..i can indeed hook local area people up with discount parts! PM me if you need somethin.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/15/06 12:50 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

If I want silky smooth, I'd own a Lexus.




Life is too short to drive a Lexus


SDchargers
(Mission Beach Stalker)
04/15/06 02:14 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

i knew subject this would entail some strong opinions..and i'm glad to see both sides as well. BUT, don't dicriminate me for being a Mitsu tech! i don't go around and say other people are stupid" anyways..on another note..i can indeed hook local area people up with discount parts! PM me if you need somethin.




I don't think anyone is discriminating you as a Mitsu tech myself included but maybe you should rename this thread "Balance Shafts, why you should or shouldn't remove them." instead of blurting something out like "Don't do it it's not worth it" like thats the only answer. You work at Mitsu so tell us some of the things that you've seen gone wrong removing them. I still have mine on but I plan to take it out soon not because I'm willing to sacrifice a comfort ride but because of everyone's first hand knowledge of what has happened when they were left on and seeing a couple of my friends cars that got taken out by them. Not everyone here has the money to throw at an engine everytime a belt breaks so explain to us in more detail any safety issues on why they should stay on other than the whole "the engineers aren't stupid" arguement. All the posts I've read about this topic have the majority people saying to remove them. Is it gonna save me money leaving them on?


Rausch
(Rock Star Status)
04/16/06 01:36 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

experience tends to override most anything, even surmised "fact". i'm sure there is more experience here than one would need access to to make a decision...i too am an ASE master certified tech...presently unemployed in that field, but i would definitely take the general concensus here over any other...these guys know what they're doing, the primary reason i joined this board. i know my way around a host of vehicles, but i'm constantly learning things from the people on this board....that means something.

quasimondo
(Running on Empty)
04/16/06 12:08 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

So, why should balance shafts be removed? Here's why.
http://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=UBB3&Number=328613&page=0&fpart=1


iceman69510
(Turn Right Racing)
04/17/06 04:00 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

Like G said, if they are so necessary then why aren't they present in the 4G61?

John




The vibrations worsen with increased displacement. The 1.6 surely did not suffer from it as much as a 2.0 liter. Porsche licensed the technology for the 2.5 l 944.


mark95
(Senior Member)
04/17/06 04:38 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

so here is my two cents on balance shaft removal...Don't do it its not worth it...I work at Mitsubishi and have seen too many things go wrong when you remove the shafts. Think about it this way...when the engineers designed the engine they put them in there for a reason...If they were not necessary they would not have spent the money on them. Engines are balanced primarily for high r.p.m.s...so when you approach anything over 6 grand and you got mods your pushing it to the limits..you want all the balance you can get to eliminate vibrations. the extra 10-20 horse some people say you can get is bogus when your engine blows up...lol i've seen it happen. Now you can argue with me but do your best! again engineers aren't stupid...and they get paid to save money!




I dont work at Mistu. and I do know that if you run a modded car the BShafts will fail, not might but will.
The engines you have seen blow up from what?? An inproper BS removal? Or some fool running too lean at WOT?

And if you ask me the engineers didnt put too much thought into the design of the Balance Shafts. If for some reason your balance shaft bearings do seize up, even on a stock car that little belt gets caught in the timing belt and either A. You get lucky it doesnt do anything B. It throws your timing off and eats all the valves or C. It will spin the rear bearing on the front Balance shaft to where the block is no longer useable.

If you have seen too many thing go wrong from removing the Balance Shafts the procedure wasnt done properly.


turbowop
(Hard Snarker)
04/19/06 02:08 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I swear we get two of these guys a year now on the board that try to go off about how removal of the balance shafts will ruin your engine. Where is this mysterious rock you guys crawl out from under?

People have been pulling the balance shafts out of 4g63's for how many years now? Find me even *one* example of an engine that was destroyed after the balance shafts were removed correctly. Please.

Keep your two cents.


Barnes
(Firechicken)
04/19/06 10:59 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Didn't someone on here have severe bearing erosion from super high oil pressure after they removed the balance shafts? Although that is easily fixable and not really related to the kind of failures people seem to imply that could happen without b-shafts.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/19/06 11:56 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Ok.. guys. I'm gonna play both sides of the fence here. First keep in mind that I own a 2.3 Magnus that vibrates pretty good and losens bolts continously. This occurs with new flywheel/clutch/fluidampr/stockmotor mounts.

Is it fair to say?

1. Stock 4g63 motors have gone on average >100k miles without balance shaft failure.
2. As long as normal periodic belt changes are done (every 60k) chances are slim BS's will fail
3. As long as you stick to the factory rev limit of 7k you shouldn't stress the BS bearings more than designed for.
4. Additional Horsepower should not cause additional BS bearing stress.
5. Balance shafts remove 2 order harmonics which run rampant in strokers (2.3's)


Is it also fair to say?
1. Spining the balance shafts does require a certain amount of power.
2. Spining the balance shafts past the crank rpm or 7k does produce accelerated wear of the Bs bearing.
3. Removing them requires less maintance and less to go wrong.
4. Removing/blocking oil passages produces high oil pressure.


SO my point is If your going to run a stock rev limit, and are willing to do the 50-60k maintance intervals, and change oil regularly, you shouldn't have much issue. In fact, those of us with the bastard 2.3 stroker could possible benefit greatly with a much pronounced vibration.

Let me know if I'm wrong on anything here.
James


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/19/06 12:09 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

2. As long as normal periodic belt changes are done (every 60k) chances are slim BS's will fail




That is the only thing I really have to take exception to. Both of my BS failures were not related to the belt at all. In fact, the belts never broke either time but rather the bearings that the shafts ride on failed. When one goes it causes a chain reaction since the oil pressure now drops the rest of the BS bearings fail, then all the material from those bearings is pumped through the motor and end up ruining all the bearings in the bottom end. If its bad enough it will damage the cam journals or seize the short block and cause the crank to be damaged.

John


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/19/06 12:11 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

intresting... how many miles were on thos bs bearings? oil changed regularly? rev past 7k often?

James


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/19/06 12:23 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I don't have the history from the previous owners but the second one had fresh oil in it and the records that I had seemed to indicate the owner took good care of the car. Whether the failure was due to poor maintenance (oil changes) or a poor design really doesn't matter when your stuck on the side of the road with a toasted motor . As I've stated before I won't own a 4G63 with the shafts in it anymore but what others choose to do with their motor is OK with me. The larger the motor is the worse the problem so that is why the 1.6's didn't have them and the 2.3's are a mother f'er without them. Did you try the locking bolts for the flywheel? The problems you are having are the main reason that I'm going to stick with a 2.0 if/when I build a good short block. Edit: Oh, and both cars were right around 165,000 miles when it happened.

John


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/19/06 12:50 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

JOhn,

That kind of makes my point. they were well over 100k when they failed.. see that's ok with me. I don't expect a race motor to last over 100k anyway.


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/19/06 01:34 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Yeah but they weren't race motors. One was my car and it happened to the previous owner who was a 40 something college professor who used it as a commuter and the other was my wife's daily driver, again not an aggressive driver. Both of those motors would still be alive and well if not for the shafts. For those of us that have the eqipment and skill to repair such a catastrophic failure it's merely an inconvenience but for others who are not so lucky it could mean the difference between sending the car the the junkyard or not. No one has come up with a failure caused by them being removed on a non race engine and IMHO the failures that you are experiencing are due to the fact that its a stroker motor. Please don't take this as me trying to be a jerk about it because I'm not, this is a great discussion IMHO but can you name one instance like I mentioned above?

John


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/19/06 01:44 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I agree it's great discussion. I agree that removing them makes a high mileage motor more reliable. But a new stock or race motor kept within the 7k rpm limit and maintained properly should not experience any BS issues until AFTER 100k. Which to ME is acceptable. Hell, I don't mind swapping bearings every 100k miles.

I agree that no one has reported any motor failures directly related to the removal of the BS's. But there are so many other ways to kill a motor as well. Yes my problems are from a 2.3 stroker. and I intend to one day, get off my ass and reinstall the Balance shafts and see exactly how much of a difference it will make. Hell I rarely go over 7k rpms.

I do wonder how the removal of the shafts have contributed to broken cranks and flywheel/clutches because of the various bolts that work loose though.

I guess there should be a compromise then.

I believe that a motor with Balance shafts kept withing 7k rpms, with regular maintenance performed, should perform flawlessly/reliable upto 100k miles. After that you need to replace all bearings. especially the BS bearings.

Does anyone know of any properly maintained motors, redlining at 7k with balance shafts that have failed before the 100k miles mark?


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/19/06 02:51 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I agree and the BS problem is nothing compared to the crankwalk of the 2G's. Oh, and if you ask me 7000rpm is where the fun has just begun, my new motor will see 9000rpm reliably . Hell, my shortblock is basically a stock rebuild and it sees 1-2 shifts at 8500 regularly .

John


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
04/19/06 05:19 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

Quote:

If I want silky smooth, I'd own a Lexus.




Life is too short to drive a Lexus




+1


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
04/20/06 07:13 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

My BS belt > timing belt failure was due to a piece of my lower timing belt cover taking it out. +1 for not running the lower cover.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/20/06 08:25 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Ryan,

Please eloborate. Did the cover break and wedge between the belt and pulley? how did the cover cause the belt to break?

James


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/21/06 10:26 AM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

?????

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/23/06 03:52 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:


on the subject of mitsubishi's Sirius engines, could you please explain the 4g61 please ?




shorter stroke motor, so I doesnt need BS...

Also what no one took in accout is that even though both weights IN UNISON cancel out the vibrations that drivers feel, each balance shaft is still an unbalanced COUNTERWEIGHT rotating unevenly in their own bearings. Those bearings take a boat load of abuse. Dependant on the previous owner , those bearings might have taken some abuse.
Missed shifts, irregular oil changes, or just plain ol' high mileage. I've had BS's destroy TWO MOTORS, and have seen where a spun bearing threw a B/S into a wobble and blow a HOLE through the side of a block, and destroy a customers head. Your being a mitsu mechanic is great, but your reasoning far from gospel. I would venture to guess that there are those of us who have built-rebuilt, and wrenched on 4G63's a tad more than you. The best of luck with your reasoning as to why you leave them in, but I guarantee you this the first motor that breaks on you from a busted BS, and youre gonna have a shit storm on your hands trying to explain why you didnt remove them.



atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/23/06 04:00 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

I don't need any BS either, I've got plenty here .

John


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/23/06 04:06 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

lololol.

Got damned Nu Yawkas....


atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/23/06 04:10 PM
Re: Why remove the balance shafts?

Quote:

each balance shaft is still an unbalanced COUNTERWEIGHT rotating unevenly in their own bearings. Those bearings take a boat load of abuse.







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