**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/14/06 12:56 PM
data logger plus gps

Are any of you guys running a palm data logger with gps? I used to have a laptop with the tmo software and gps streets and trips, and loved it. But now I need something new. I am thinking about getting a palm for price and convenience. I am not sure what is good and what is compatible. I would like any input you guys have.

thanks


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/15/06 12:10 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I've been shopping for an m505 or m515 with either Navman or Magellan GPS Companion. I'm not sure if it will be possible to have the logger and the GPS connected at the same time, because the GPS usually clips to the port on the Palm. I think (maybe) the Magellan might have a pass-through, but I haven't seen any decent pics of it.

Ideally, I'd have GPS+Logger+plus charging.

I am getting the impression that the Magellan requires some work, like you have to pre-program your route before using? The NavMan sounds like it is more "navigation" related. Another issue is RAM, some maps need a lot of memory, so an m130 is out of the question (only on-board RAM). SD cards are cheap these days, so I think a huge SD card with maps on it + the FSM on PDF would be killer.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/15/06 01:32 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Agreed.

I have been looking into the "Garmin iQue 3600 GPS". It looks like the right thing for gps. But it is so new I have no idea if it will log. I would hate to spend $250 on this and have it not work.

Also, a few of the clip on nav systems have power cords that powers both the palm and the nav. But it would take some very clever hacking to get the logger to work as well.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/15/06 03:08 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Anyone know how to tell if the serial on a palm will or will not work? Is it a specific model thing or is it all the new ones after a certain year?

HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/15/06 03:25 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

First off, I'm pretty sure that no Palm OS 5.0+ devices will work. (No serial support) That puts the iQue out.

DarkDevilMMM
(if I want a potential headache, I rather just get another GVR4)
05/15/06 03:28 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

it's depends on specific model, some of them have bad serial ports, some of them uses the low level 3.3V CMOS, some have built-in RS232 port, so it all depends on model.

on the GPS note, you can always use a bluetooth GPS and add a bluetooth card on the plam if it's not built-in already. but if your palm is too old to add a bluetooth card on, then sorry, u are pretty much out of luck, u can always use a splitter, using either GPS or logging, but not both. or simply get a new palm, it's cheap on ebay


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/15/06 03:29 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

The iQUE has a "Serial - 9 pin D-shell (RS-232/EIA 574)" listed as one of its specs. But the OS doesn't support it? I hate when technology is "smarter".

HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/15/06 04:09 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Something like this?
http://www.gpskabel.de/info/cradlemode.htm

It seems as though a lot of these USB Palms can be wired for Serial, the question then comes down to the Palm itself.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/15/06 04:37 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

maybe it does!

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/15/06 05:07 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Well, I just got one off of ebay.

I hope it works. At least the gps will.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
05/15/06 07:57 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I don't see why it wouldn't. The limitation would likely be that the Palm does not technically multitask. As for the cradle trick. That is based upon an either/or arrangement via switch which changes a resistance value to one of the pins on the Palm used to set the connection type. Look at the pin for device selection.

Palm universal connector pinout and explanation

PDA GPS info

If you search the web for the the pinouts for a particular you can find out whether it has true serial support. The quasi-USB serial version (as opposed to discreet 'Serial' and 'USB') is still lacking a working driver that will work with any logger.

There are a couple of work-arounds for the serial PDAs that only put out 3.3v. The basic premise is that the signal needs to be buffered to return to proper levels. Its hit-or-miss though due to the massive variations in implementation. The whole point of RS-232c was for it to be universal, however manufacturers rarely put attention to detail.

This is going to become more of a problem as we diverge from the original PDA logger codebase written in PalmOS, as well as the original RS-232c protocol.

It really needs to be re-written for a good vanilla piece of hardware that allows full serial emulation even via USB. I think Win CE and PocketPC are all somewhat neutered in the availability of programming. Add that to all the PDA/phones that are lacking in proper and complete hardware implementation or documented driver suites.

The IBM PC standard evolved because of this exact same problem. As did Windows(although that is no longer true by definition of its anti-portability). Here we are 25 years later in the exact same boat, only with PDAs.

Lets look at a parallel in OS vs. the same one that occurred with proprietary PCs. Linux evolved out of the disparity of massive "We own your soul", mentality of Microsoft.

Now Linux is rising to free us from that. You just need libraries for compiling the hardware. Linux is compilable for just about any hardware imaginable.

On the forefront affecting both hardware and software is an ideology called virtualization. The emulation of all things hardware/software. Want an idea of a real world use for virtualization?

Multi Arcade Machine Emulator This program allows you to run every coin-op video game machine ever built. Using copies pf the original ROM firmware images(which are of course illegal to possess unless you own the cabinet). You even have to hit keys to insert the quarters. It will compile on almost any computer platform imaginable. It supports a myriad of input devices (trackballs, joysticks, spinners).

We don't need another PocketPC, we need a PC in the size of a PDA. Not a cut down, skimped on, wannabe PC. a full fledged PC with all the trimmings. It doesn't have to be extremely fast, just complete.

Stephen Firestone
1992 Galant VR-4 #1110010110 of 1111101000 (in Binary)


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/16/06 10:57 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

Ah, awesome Paul. I'm bidding on a 3200, figured I'd try to save a few bucks.

Maybe I should wait and see if you have any luck.

--

Stephen: AWESOME links and information, thank you!


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/16/06 03:37 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I think I posted that link to the cradle mod awhile ago!!! I've done this and i currently have an m515 logging and charging. (the PDA's battery no longer holds a charge so I have to have the charging, MMCD lies on the memory card). GPS would be nice but, at least for me, it will have to be a separate device. I really like Pioneers in-dash system if it weren't for teh $2000 price tag. I'm waiting for a portable device that can recieve the XM NavTraffic signal. The pioneer can pick up traffic info from XM and automatically direct you around and help you avoid the stop and go. Pretty cool. They just need that in a portable for multiple vehicle applications.

-Josh

PS. When I get my car back up to PA, I'll take some pics of my logger setup. I modified the cradle to provide logging and charging. I then removed the stabalizing wait from teh cradle, ran the wires out the bottom of the cradle instead of the back and bolted the wires to the driver's side speaker grill. The wires go through the grill and around the speaker to get to the ECU and power. The angle is great for my tall self to read while driving. I haven't had it fly off on a launch yet either, I'm guessing the angle helps with that too.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
05/16/06 06:12 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Ditto. Right now I'm using the palm serial cradle for the M505. This is the universal cradle that comes in either USB or Serial that you can wire for both. The nice thing is that you can just adapt a 12V source right into the end of the plug at the serial connector. I'm going to hack the cradle up so I can mount it in a more suitable location and add the rear clips that Palm didn't include. I have managed to make mine go flying once or twice.







HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/17/06 10:23 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

Hotness!

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/17/06 01:25 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I use a Handspring Platinum for datalogging, and a Magellan "somethingorother" Springboard module. It plugs into the top/back, ala gameboys, and leaves the Hotsync port free to datalog. I can only view one program at a time, and it doesn't like to run both at once, but it's easy to switch back and forth via hotkeys. Besides, you shouldn't be tuning when you're lost.

You could probably find the both those units on the net or ebay for ~$60. The Platinum's color screen is nice for the gps, and it has a much better backlight IMHO for night viewing. It does have a rechargable battery though, so you can't just toss in a fresh set of cells when it gets low. And the Magellan has it's on set of AAA's.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/19/06 04:39 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

My iQue 3600 came in today. The thing looks SWEET!
Here are some helpful palm websites:
Palm links. (some of this info is in the link s_firestone posted above)

From those I concluded that I can get the serial sync cable (on order ). The resistance between pins 7 and 8 will probably be 7.5K ohms. For an RS-232 peripheral it should be 100K ohms and for a modem it should be 220K ohms. I'm not sure which one I need. Anyone know?
FYI, a short is USB.

So I'll mod that as needed. I'll go with the 100K unless someone tells me other wise. I also bought about $10 worth of components to piece together a voltage regulator to get the 5 volts the palm wants to see. I'll just cut off the power connector on the sync cable and hard wire in the proper voltage.

I have a funny feeling, this seems like it will all work out but will probably screw me in the end.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
05/19/06 06:02 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I think its going to work out. Definitely keep us posted.

HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
05/21/06 11:18 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

If you figure it out, let me know how to order a cable from you.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/01/06 11:35 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

The cable showed up. The resistor is a 7.5k. My guess is it won't work, but I lost my rj11-db9 adapter (see other thread) so I can't test it.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/13/06 05:16 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I finally got the adapter installed. ECU communication error. Now I need to figure out how to swap the surface mount 7.5k resistor with a 100k one.

s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/13/06 06:39 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

You'll have to desolder the 7.5, or add a 100K in series. Solder a 1/8 watt 100K resistor in its place, don't worry about needing a surface mount, resistance is resistance. Or add a switch with 7.5K on one pole and the 100K on the other.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/13/06 06:43 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Ya, the electronics doesn't scare me too much. It is the physical connections. There is very little room and, from what I can tell, I'll need to just rest the resistor leads on top of the board and solder it that way.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/15/06 03:52 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

OK, I have no experience with this. I have tried both the 7.5k resistor and the 100k resistor. With the car off I get a "serial comm error". With the car on I get a "ecu comm error". I don't even know what I should be checking to trouble shoot this.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/15/06 05:50 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Is it possible I screwed up the rx tx...hhmmm

Is this the same kind of error when swapping from a pc connection to a palm?


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/15/06 07:47 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

It's obvious your getting power since the message changes when you have the key on. It could be simple. Sounds like your serial port is communicating with the RS-232 driver chip in the Logger cable. Could be a BAUD rate mismatch in MMCd.

Very possible. Try swapping and see what happens. This is why I use break-out boxes, breadboards and punchdown connectors when testing a new circuit. Sometimes a device on either side is looking for a signal such as DTR(Data Terminal Ready) or CST(Clear To Send) or DCD (Data Carrier Detect) to be active before communications can continue. Most Null modem tie at least one of these connectors. Also make sure you have a ground.

Which type ALDL to RS-232 cable are using? One for a Palm or one for a PC? If a PC than you need only a null modem adapter.

Null modem pinouts


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/16/06 01:21 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

I am using a permanent rs232 port that keydiver soldered in for me. I lost his adapter and spent some time figuring out what I needed to replace it. That can be found in this post here.

I tried all 4 available options in the mmcd program for baud rate. It didn't change anything. I will try to swap the rx and tx (pins 2 and 3) tomorrow and see what happens.

I wish I had done some preliminary wiring like you described. It would have made this part a little easier.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/16/06 07:39 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

Sounds like you're making it easier on me. Keep up the good work.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/16/06 01:33 PM
Re: data logger plus gps


Swapping pins 2 and 3 gives me a "serial comm error".


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/16/06 01:42 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Do you have access to a regular Palm for testing?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/16/06 01:45 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

nope

over on dsmtuner I found this:
Quote:

A "Serial Comm Error" means MMCd is seeing nothing on the RXD line and "ECU comm error" means that MMCd saw it's command echoed back but never received a response from the ECU. A bad cable can cause both errors, but you will get a "Serial Comm Error" is the cable is disconnected and a "ECU comm error" if the ECU is disconnected but have a good cable.





**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/16/06 04:16 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

OK, I have tested every connection from the ecu main board (with the rs232 driver chip) all the way back to the palm connection. It is all correct according to the schematics from above. I am at a loss.

HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/16/06 04:44 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Can you verify that the serial works from the Q itself? Now that you've built yourself a serial cable, you should be able to sync it via serial with your computer.

s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/16/06 04:53 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Now that you've established this, you have eliminated those two lines. A typical serial port has a couple of control signals (like traffic signals) that determine who can talk and when. On simple communications (known as a dumb modem) or null modem lines these pins are typically tied.

This gets a bit tricky. There are two types of communications equipment:
Data Terminal Equipment (DTE)
Data Communications Equipment (DCE)

Each type is wired opposite one another at the port so that by default, all the proper pins will be connected (Tx to Rx, RTS to CTS, etc).

This is why a PC can connect to a modem with a straight through cable. PC (DTE) to Modem (DCE).

You cannot connect like equipment together without swapping several signals and faking a couple others, this is known as a null modem.

A PC (Which is DTE) will connect to a Palm because the Palm is DCE.


When you try to connect a Palm (DCE) to a Datalogger wired for a PC (DTE) the pins are mismatched. This is where the Null modem comes in, it reverses the signals from DCE into DTE.

So typically a Palm is DCE and an ECU datalogger cable is DCE unless the datalogger is hardwired as DTE in advance. Hence the two types of cables or one cable and a null modem.

Several must haves for a serial port(Assuming 9 pin to 9 pin):

2 Tx <----> Rx 3 (Required)
3 Rx <----> Tx 2 (Required)

5 Gnd <---> Gnd 5 (Required)

7 RTS <----> CTS 8 (RTS, CTS provide each terminal with the "OK" signal to transmit or acknowledge)
8 CTS <----> RTS 7 (Ditto)


1 DCD <----> DCD 1 (Usually tied to DSR, DTR to trick devices into 'ready' status)
4 DTR <----> DSR 6 (Required)
6 DSR <----> DTR 4 (Required)

Likely you are simply missing one signal for the remote (ECU) to respond. That signal is likely RTS/CTS, or DTR/DSR. This may be a signal that simply needs to be faked (set to one level) by connecting to another pin so that the corresponding piece of equipment says "OK", so communications can continue.

Think of how a human conversation takes place. Each person takes turns giving and receiving information. Visual and audible queues are used to determine when to speak, listen, or acknowledge. This is known as handshaking in computer terms. As humans we learn to do it automatically and with a great deal of flexibility. But computers must rely solely on fact. The process of acknowledging a packet of data must be absolute, otherwise the data must be re-sent. The same holds true with determining who's turn it is to talk. The pins on a serial port accomplish that.

Here is another link. Scroll down the page and it touches on hung communications. You may need to check with Jeff on specifics of how complete the hardwired serial port is. That will determine what tricks you must use to make both pieces of equipment happy.

Serial Interface Properties


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/16/06 11:11 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Ok, after reading over that site I decided to try to jump pin 7 and 8 (rts/cts on the palm). I decided this because the palm only has a DSR but no DTR or DCD so jumping them together would have done nothing.

I also decided this since no data logger cable schematic I found had jumped connections and the setup worked before with only 4 wires coming out of the ecu box.

Here is the strange part. I still get an ecu comm error for baud rates of 1920, 1953 and 8192bps. However, I now get a serial comm error when 9600bps is selected.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/17/06 10:58 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

1920 is likely the one you want, I don;t think the ECU can run at higher baud rates like 9600.

It is unfortunate but there are about a dozen ways to wire a serial port depending on the device.

If this is the case then the lines must be tied to their complementary pin.

ECU Gnd ---> Palm Serial Gnd (common ground)
ECU Diag (tied to Ground to put the ECU in DIAG mode) This is technically the ON switch for logging.
ECU Tx <--- Palm Rx
ECU Rx ---> Palm Tx

Essentially you have 3 wires, Jeff states that the ECU DIAG is already tied to ground inside the ECU connector.

Try it in its simplest form first. If it works then no futher modification is necessary.

If you tie RTS/CTS strictly on the palm side you may want to also tie in DSR line. Try wiring it like above first and only wire in the extra if it does not respond.

Which interface does the Ique use for its serial port, do you have a true pinout? We still have not ruled out this being a Palm OS 5 problem.

One thing you might try. I'm assuming even with the installed serial port on the ECU, that the DIAG port still works. If so you should be able to test using a true datalogger cable. A proper datalogger cable uses a full RS-232 tranciever chip and it provides the necessary signaling. It interprets and converts the proper RS-232 into the single pin +5V TTL ALDL protocol used by the ECU diag port.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/17/06 02:30 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Stephen,

The on board stuff Jeff added is an rs232 driver. It has the IC as well as the rest of the components to make it a true permanent data logger cable. Everything is contained on a riser board Jeff soldered in to the ECU main board. 4 wires come out from that circuit. Jeff decided to use a telephone cord for these wires. Red is the ECU DIAG. Black is ground. Yellow and Green are txd and rxd. Because Jeff used a Telephone cord for the wires, an rj11 to db9 adapter is used. Unfortunately, the one Jeff sent me has been misplaced. The other thread illustrates what I did to replace that adapter. IT is in the adapter that the ECU DIAG gets tied to ground. So once the adapter is connected to the phone cord, it is exactly like plugging in a true data logger cable.

This leaves the question on the palm side of things. I have checked the palm serial cable I have to the diagram I linked to previously with a multimeter. The diagram is accurate.

I first tried to wire nothing special. I just had the adapter with txd, rxd and ground plugged into the store bought serial cradle cable. This cable came with a 7.5k resistor for the device select. I got the "ecu comm error" with this. So I then swapped the 7.5k to a 100k in order to make it a "serial device". This didn't change anything. Then I tied the cts and rts together as described in the link you posted. That resulted in what I described above.

It looks like the only hardware thing I have left to try is to tie the dsr in with the cts/rts. This is not on the link you gave. In fact that link describes them as being to separate things. Will I hurt anything by trying this?

It would be nice it try a known good palm, like a palmIII. But I don't know of anyone around here with one.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/18/06 12:20 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Sorry for the extremely long post. I generally research a little, write a little, research some more, write some more, edit and rewrite... It's a vicious cycle due to the sheer number of branches trouble-shooting can take. Most problems are solved in advance by looking for possible answers and then weeding out the less likely ones and testing the rest. Use what you need from this post and ignore the rest.


If you no longer have that RJ-11 to DB9 connector you need to tie the signal ground and diag pin together manually (or at least check for continuity), and then connect both of them to the RS-232 signal ground (Pin 5) on the Palm.

Heres why: Until the diag pin is grounded, the ECU is in normal operating mode, not diagnostics mode. Once you tie the RS-232 signal ground and ECU diag together and connect them to the Palm on RS-232 pin 5 (Gnd), then the ECU is put into DIAG ON mode. This could explain why your getting an ECU communications error. The ECU is not transmitting to Jeff's RS-232 transceiver unless you ground that diag pin.

Like I said, there are about a dozen ways to wire a serial port depending on the equipment being wired. Sometimes tying the lines are done just to satisfy one side so it will ignore the particular signals (Ignoring CTS or DSR, tying DCD so that the device believes there is a carrier signal). Some terminals (particularly a lot of DCE type equipment) do not even listen for those signals and will ignore them by default.

You are correct in that DSR/DTR and RTS/CTS are separate entities, the point being is that sometimes we want to 'fake' a "HIGH" signal on a particular pin, so that the comm program using the port is fooled into thinking what we want it to, and not necessarily hanging on a signal that it will never receive because it doesn't exist from the other device. But there is the possibility that Jeff had the typical null modem connections tied inside that RJ-11 to DB9 connector. In other words, the serial port should always have an answer to the questions being posed on those lines, YES it is OK to send and YES we are READY.

Remember unlike a person, a computer can only do what its told, if the OK never comes it will wait indefinitely (think of a dialog box in Windows awaiting a response). RS-232 is an asynchronous protocol. It does not use pure timing, but rather responds based upon signals from the each side (the handshaking). If the handshaking signals stop, communication grinds to a halt while the computer waits. This behavior is by design since serial communications are used for unreliable and noisy links where you cannot guarantee the integrity of the data. It is a scalable standard that allows for very complete handling of errors or no confirmation at all. An example of where all the capabilities are employed is when modems communicate across phone lines, a dumb terminal hooked up to a mainframe, or a serial printer is hooked up half way across a factory. These features can be selectively required, used or selectively ignored depending on the type of equipment and how its programmed.

An example of this asynchronous handshaking in real-world human communications would be two people talking via cell-phones. Cell phones are notorious for cutting out. When talking we periodically check to make sure the other person is still there. If we do not get periodic acknowledgment, we stop sending information and begin putting out a series of queries... "Hello? Hello? Are you there? Can you hear me?". Then we wait. Either one of several things occur. One the person on the other side responds "Yes, I am hearing you, continue", "I didn't get that, could you repeat it?, or simply no reply at all. Depending on which of these responses we receive, including 'no response', we take a particular action. We begin transmitting data from the point we stopped. We begin transmitting again, but repeating from the point which the other party said was not received. Or, we simply wait for a period of time not receiving any reply and hang up to wait for the connection to be resumed.

Most communications problems are simple unintentional mis-interpretations (just as in real life). How many times have we been talking on a phone and realized that the other side had not been receiving for 30 seconds or more. How many times has someone mis-interpreted a message because they were distracted or the content of the message changed while relaying it to a third party (through grape vine effect). How many times have we left a voice mail and it cut off before the message was finished. While we have the ability to filter and correct the context, for a computer this is fatal. If the data is not 100% correct it is unusable, i.e. a garbled mess of 1's and 0's.

RS-232 connections are pretty tolerant of connecting different pins. I don't think you will hurt anything.

Another thing to consider and try is to use a different program such as pocketlogger vs MMCd.

You can get a palm for testing from Ebay for next to nothing. Same with the serial cradles. I wish I was closer.

Now realistically if we cannot get this thing to work with this Ique, any $20 palm will suffice to hook up and log since you already have everything else you need.

I've been reading through the posts on the MMCd thread on 3SI.org (89 pages deep). There is a mention mention of a "serial fix".

MMMd thread on 3SI

Handango 'Serial Fix'

The references to some of the loggers needing the actual RS-232 lines to operate on the less-than-standard RS-232 on the newer palms. Could be that we simply need to patch into the RTS and CTS lines from Jeff's installed RS-232 transceiver chip for your Palm to be happy.

Someone has reported getting a Treo 650 to work as well as a Palm Tungsten T3 at non-standard baud rates. I do not think we are at the end of the rope here. There is a lot of work being done trying to get these newer generations of Multimedia capable Palms working so do not give up. I think we can get this to work. I only wish I was closer and able to lend a hand. We may have to hack a custom test version of the RS-232 transceiver circuit to get this to work reliably on your Garmin. The end result is that we may aid the entire community. I think this nut can be cracked.

We need a couple of things defined.

1: A proper schematic of your circuit and circuits you have eliminated as not working.
2: The pinout of your particular garmin ique 3600 (I found several but I'm unsure which fits your unit)
3: The version of MMCd you are using.
4: The Palm-OS version.
6: The type chip Jeff is using and extrapolating its schematic. (Been reading on DSM-ECU)
5: Document your settings you have tried and the resulting error code.

Lets do this methodically. You will likely need to buy an RS-232 Break-out box or analyzer so we can see whats happening on the various lines. This will let us transparently see the communications taking place and why they are stopping. I've listed some below. We will simply jumper this in to the circuit between the ECU and Palm.

You don't need all of these things. These are just some items indicative of sorting out problems like this. A simple trip to Radio Shack or a decent Electronics/Radio shop will yield a lost of what you might need without the guesswork. You might even be able to find a couple of Ham or CB radio Gurus who could probably fix this problem or at least diagnose it.

RS-232 jumper box

Another RS-232 Jumper box

DB9 to DB25 adapter

RS232 Break Out Box on Ebay

This is about a $600 analyzer, several are listed above $100 and this one is only $15 (I Love Ebay).
Serial Analyzer on Ebay


I also found this listed on Ebay, not sure if it fits your ique:
Garmin Etrex serial RS-232 car adapter


You are not a in a boat alone. A lot of people are quite perturbed by the lack of proper support (and intentional witholding of technical information), from hardware manufacturers. Ham radio, electronics hobbyists, automation hobbyists, developers, scientists alike... Manufacturer attitudes of "You don't need to know", "Thats a trade secret", "We didn't write it so we could license and sell it as an add-on". People fork down good money for promised specs and apps the in the end become vaporware. This is what drove people like Linus Torvalds to develop Linux using open source.

The fact the development is continuing and some progress is being made is very promising for all of us.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/19/06 03:20 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

Long posts are perfectly fine. Let me answer some of your questions quickly. I know you want more detailed answers and I will work on them tomorrow.
Quote:

1: A proper schematic of your circuit and circuits you have eliminated as not working.
2: The pinout of your particular garmin ique 3600 (I found several but I'm unsure which fits your unit)
3: The version of MMCd you are using.
4: The Palm-OS version.
6: The type chip Jeff is using and extrapolating its schematic. (Been reading on DSM-ECU)
5: Document your settings you have tried and the resulting error code.





2) The pinout for the Garmin is the same as the one I linked to previously as "palm links"
3) 1.5d
4) Palm OS 5.2.1
6) max202--- (the last bit has been scratched)

I tried the "serialfix" thinking it would be the answer, but it isn't compatible. I get an"unsupported CPU type" error. It looks like the program is made for higher end CPUs. The garmin runs on a 200MHz dragonball mxl arm9.

I will try to get more info tomorrow.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/19/06 11:24 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

Definitely get the newer version of MMCd. 1.8g and 1.8n are the latest versions.

Let me look up the MAX 202 and see if it differs from the typical MAX232 chip.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/19/06 02:18 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

Can you verify that the serial works from the Q itself? Now that you've built yourself a serial cable, you should be able to sync it via serial with your computer.




Some how I missed this post. Sorry Ryan.
I tried to hotsync via serial today. It didn't work. I never tried this with the 7.5k resistor so I don't know what the problem is. It could be he 100k resistor, the cable, the garmin, the pc, or something I am not thinking of.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/19/06 02:23 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

Definitely get the newer version of MMCd. 1.8g and 1.8n are the latest versions.




Is there another spot to get these? I am not a member of 3si.org so they won't let me download.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/19/06 02:39 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

Quote:

Can you verify that the serial works from the Q itself? Now that you've built yourself a serial cable, you should be able to sync it via serial with your computer.




Some how I missed this post. Sorry Ryan.
I tried to hotsync via serial today. It didn't work. I never tried this with the 7.5k resistor so I don't know what the problem is. It could be he 100k resistor, the cable, the garmin, the pc, or something I am not thinking of.




Well, at least you know it isn't the ECU.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/19/06 07:40 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

It's not going to sync with a PC without rewiring. Not unless you switch the send/recieve lines. PC is DTE, datalogger is DCE. You can switch the connections and test though.

s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/19/06 07:48 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

Quote:

Definitely get the newer version of MMCd. 1.8g and 1.8n are the latest versions.




Is there another spot to get these? I am not a member of 3si.org so they won't let me download.




There is a link embedded for 1.8g on DMChips.com

MMCd 1.8g


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/19/06 09:18 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

It's not going to sync with a PC without rewiring. Not unless you switch the send/recieve lines. PC is DTE, datalogger is DCE. You can switch the connections and test though.




I thought long and hard about this. The cable was bought as a pc hotsync serial cable. So I thought it should work. But I modified the cable from the 7.5k resistor which is for a pc connection to the 100k resistor which is for a serial device connection. Will this flip flop the tx/rx like I think it will?


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/20/06 06:27 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

It's unlikely it would switch the tx/rx for you but it definitely might change the comm mode. The cable would likely be wired DCE(Garmin) to DTE(PC). If the cable was already a hotsync serial cable using a DB9 connector then that might work. The comm mode using the 100K resistor may be for Garmin's GPS mode.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/20/06 12:31 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Definitely get the newer version of MMCd. 1.8g and 1.8n are the latest versions.




Is there another spot to get these? I am not a member of 3si.org so they won't let me download.




There is a link embedded for 1.8g on DMChips.com

MMCd 1.8g




Awesome! I tried this and I made a little progress, maybe. At baud rates just higher than 1953bps like 2193bps I was able to read codes, I think. I ran my battery down so I didn't force an error to be sure (my motor is shot so I'm not sure what I would do), but I was able to read "none" while doing a test. However, I tried to log and as soon as I unpaused the palm froze and needed to be reset with the button on the back. Is this an improvement?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/20/06 12:35 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

1: A proper schematic of your circuit and circuits you have eliminated as not working.
5: Document your settings you have tried and the resulting error code.




I am still working on the schematics. Well, I should say, I am still thinking about how I would do them. I don't have autocad or viseo so whatever I do will be in mspaint .


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/20/06 12:35 PM
Re: data logger plus gps



The freeze could be an infinite loop of some kind.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/20/06 04:04 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

If you have it Visio is made for it. Bunches of templates available on the web and it routes lines for you.

If not paint is fine. You can also download something like GIMP for free. Definitely several steps above MS Paint.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/20/06 04:08 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Definitely an improvement. Try turning off several of the logging parameters, down to basics. My palm will do flaky things when the battery gets low. Also check for loose wiring, loose sockets, otherwise it can cause problems. You'll show like 254 Knock.

Spyder
(I only have like 400 posts.... )
06/20/06 04:24 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

dude what happened to your engine?????

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/20/06 04:50 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

^^^ The little noise I was hearing in CO was a spun bearing that took out the other bearings and got hot enough to discolor the crank and rod. That was why I made the comment in your brother's post about our cars getting cursed while we were there.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/20/06 04:56 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Quote:

Definitely an improvement. Try turning off several of the logging parameters, down to basics. My palm will do flaky things when the battery gets low. Also check for loose wiring, loose sockets, otherwise it can cause problems. You'll show like 254 Knock.




It was the car battery. What parameters should I turn off? The only thing I had selected was the RPM and INJD. I am doing this with the car on but not running due to what is mentioned above.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/20/06 06:31 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

It should log, is it still locking up?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/20/06 07:03 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I hooked everything back up with a partially charged car battery. With everything on I got "none". I unplugged the mass air and got code 13. So I DEFINITELY can check codes.

I didn't spend very long with it this time. So, I didn't exhaust all of my options. But everything I did try so far hung when I unpaused to log.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/21/06 01:02 AM
Re: data logger plus gps



This is the current setup. I am lacking a pin out for the max-202 or a schematic for its circuit.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/21/06 12:09 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

With the above setup, I tried all the baud rates available. 1920 and 1953 gave me ECU comm error. 2148 and 2193 read the codes but locked the palm when I tried to log. 2246 gave me an ecu comm error on the "active" and about 8 miscellaneous errors in stored. Everything higher gave me a serial comm error, although I stopped trying after 19200.

I went back and tried the two that worked with out the jumper from pin 7 to 8. It made no difference.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/21/06 12:21 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

So your cradle has a Hotsync button? Is it a Garmin cradle?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/21/06 12:26 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I got the cable not the cradle. I forgot to change the label on that drawing. It is a garmin cable. The only change I made was the resistor.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/21/06 12:34 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

All fixed. I was tired when I drew that up. I stole the cradle drawing from palm and modified it to match what I have. Unfortunately, I missed the hotsync label and the word cradle. It looks right now.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/22/06 04:02 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

I have been looking into this a little more and have found nothing. I thought I read about a similar situation on the 3si thread but can't find it. I am running short on funds at the moment, so I haven't purchased any of the break out boxes or what not.

I really wish that serialfix was compatible with this ique. Any other ideas?


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/24/06 09:11 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

The schematic looks to be sound. The fact that your getting codes is a good thing. You might try changing the options in MMCd to lower the logging rate. This makes me think that this is a buffer overflow issue.

Unfortunately this is at least partially symptomatic of the "virtual" serial port AKA USB derived serial port issue as seen with a lot of newer Palms. The common symptom is communications appearing to work but the logger hanging almost immediately. The problem is that the RS-232 implementation is not true. It's emulated from within the USB port. I know this has plagued the community because of the lack of a proper driver for USB. Since the Palms are not Master (USB equivalent to DTE) they lack some of the functions or their big brothers on the PC USB driver interface.

The only other pin that could be causing this is the DTR. If DTR is floating it may just fill the send/recieve buffers and then appear to hang up because it thinks the MAX202 is not ready. Think of it as a queue to hold the send/recieve data without losing it. Try tying it to RTS/CTS or Ground temporarily to see if that fixes the problem.

You may try putting in a call to Garmin. One of their engineers might be able to shed some insight or even provide a beta serial driver. I would keep digging in the Garmin specific forums and the sites that make garmin compatible apps and equipment. You might also go bak through some of the links we have compiled in this thread. There may be something on one of the custom application pages we missed. Just like that serial fix, there may be more than one version of it compiled for your Palm's processor.

I'm going to look into the RS-232 drivers from the Palm's perspective. It's possible we may be able to graft one onto the Garmin from another Palm.

You might also look into your Garmin's menus and check for settings/compatibility options. If the Garmin has a terminal program we might be able to do some tests that way.

While your researching I may try some tests. I may have a newer Palm tungsten to experiment on. It could be a simple modication thats been overlooked to make the Garmin and all other USB derived serial interfaced Palms happy.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/24/06 05:21 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I just tried this:
palm file
Which does this:
Quote:

there is a problem with the serial port on version 5. Older Palm OS apps expect the serial library to be preloaded after boot up. In Palm OS 5 and the Tungsten T this lib is not loaded after boot up. This free program will help you running older palm apps that use the serial port.




Unfortunately, odd baud rates were not available on the program and it did not change any results.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/26/06 05:00 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap

garmin FAQ

Quote:

Q. Can I perform real-time tracking with my iQue and a laptop computer?
A. The Garmin iQue does not have the capability of performing real-time tracking. The iQue does not output data that the computer can use to determine its position for tracking purposes. The HotSync process is the only communications channel and does not have the ability to stay on continuously to transmit/receive data.

Q. Is it possible for the iQue 3600 to access the Internet?
A. There are several methods of accessing the Internet while using the iQue. First, use a serial modem cradle to connect through your desktop or laptop computer's Internet connection. Second, use a serial modem cradle that plugs into a standard phone line to connect to a remote ISP or dial-in (remote access) server. This second process is especially beneficial if you are away from your computer. Both processes are detailed in the iQue manual that is on the setup disk. Currently, the iQue 3600 does not support SDIO peripherals.




HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/27/06 12:19 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

What is SDIO?

If it works with a serial modem then it will work to log with -- it's the same thing, isn't it?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/27/06 03:09 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

3600 manual

I am not sure what SDIO stands for, but I am guessing it is Serial Data Input Output. Reading chapter ten of the above manual leads me to believe the modem is for tcp/ip communication with telephone handshakes and what not.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
06/27/06 03:23 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

It still talks to the modem via RS232.

Have you tried those different connection settings?


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/29/06 11:21 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

I found some more data regarding the known bug in the Palm OS5 devices. This was referencing a T3 but the principle is the same.

Discussion of Palm OS5 serial flow control and buffer implementation

What this discussion alludes to is that the Palm is mis-handling the flow control. It is a known bug and has never been patched in the OS. Essentially the serialfix patches it in some cases. In your case it would not work with your Garmin specific hardware.

What is happening with your Garmin is that the ECU is sending data as soon as its put into 'diag' mode. The Palm serial connection has a data buffer of a finite size. As long as number of received packets is smaller than the buffer can hold, you are able to communicate. However once you begin asking the ECU for the data from multiple registers which contain the logging data, it over-runs the buffer. As soon as the buffer gets full the CTS line drops indicating that no more packets can be sent.

There are two types of flow control. Hardware flow control utilizing actual signal lines RTS/CTS and Software flow control which bundles the flow control onto the TX/RX line. There is also an option of no flow control AKA dumb mode or blind transmission.

There are a couple of scenarios here.

One, the Garmin is not correctly interpreting the RTS/CTS (or ignoring them). We did attempt to tie them so the CTS line would be asserted. Now that you have rudimentary communications, re-check that those lines are tied, as it may be that simple.

Two, the MMCd software is coded for one type of flow control or another but is not written to support both (could be rectified by minor addition to the way the software handles the data with an option to toggle).

Three, we need a circuit to cheat a little and coax the port into being happy. A simple acknowledgment from the MAX202 may do the trick. It may be that the Garmin is doing exactly what its supposed to. But that it expects proper signaling. This may be hard-coded in firmware or in the serial driver(and differ in its behavior from Palm OS4 and earlier). The MAX202 does have these signals available. We may need to extend the control signals over so that the burden for flow control falls on the MAX202 rather than none, or a faked RTS/CTS.

Four, After reading that some people had problems with Garmin devices hot-sync'ing with the backlight on, we could be dealing with a similar problem. The Garmin may be sensitive to power drain from its power supply and that may affect the sensitivity to current loop based communications.

Five, as mentioned before we may be dealing with a virtual serial port that is being emulated strictly as a subset of the Garmin USB port. The serial port may not technically exist which causes all applications written to use a serial library grief.

I'm still researching. As I mentioned before, I am trying to get a non-standard newer palm and look at the original MMCd source to see if we can fake it. I'm also looking at seeing if routing the data via the infrared port or a bluetooth connection would work. There is limited serial support via both. The flow control is still an issue as both alternate types of ports were never intended to have full compliance with RS-232c. If we could get one working USB port of the MMCd code we could do this. Bluetooth may fair better than USB than accomplishing this.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/30/06 05:57 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

You mean routing logger data from the ECU via infrared or bluetooth? Bluetooth logging would be pretty trick. Keep up the good research, sounds like you've made some progress, just need to get over this wall. Doesn't the MMcD team have a setup to use newer Palm's and a higher speed data transfer with a mod to the ECU? It's been awhile since I've been over to the 3si site.

-Josh


DarkDevilMMM
(if I want a potential headache, I rather just get another GVR4)
06/30/06 09:09 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

using bluetooth is pretty simple, especially conversion between serial dataline to bluetooth dataline. the part you need to look into is at the software side, i.e. MMCd. program MMCd to grab data from bluetooth port instead of serial port. I tried to do this before, but I have other more important projects to do
the easiest way to do is, get 2 hardware serial to bluetooth converter, one plug into the car, the other plug into the palm, and there u go, bluetooth u have.


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/30/06 10:39 AM
Re: data logger plus gps

If done properly, the program can be made to be transparent. Able to use any transport. All the datalogging software was written on a particular platform that Palm laid out. Unfortunately Palm changed both the hardware and software without maintaining backwards compatibility. They are not the only company to orphan a huge group of existing customers and supporters.

Every week a new Palm/PDA/Phone gets released. Every company is in it for themselves. Very few companies attempt to create a proper framework for artichitectural transparency.

Most will not divulge their supposed "trade secrets", a euphimism for: "We stood on the backs of those who came before us to get where we are, but we claim this land in the name of France anyway... And Thanks for giving us the ride over, now go away".

There is currently no totally compatible universal interface that provides for the complete feature set that RS-232 provided. Most are implemented about 25%. We don't truly need 100% implementation anyway, just a working consistent 50% that won't be altered or nuetered in the future.


I've read about 50 pages (40 to go) on 3SI.org the 'HSLogger' looks to be a transparent interface to the ECU with some expandability. Be nice to see it when done. $100 is not bad if it ends up being the trouble-free solution that its touted to be.

The majority of Serial problems on newer Palms/Sony's and likely the Garmin are probably related to BAUD rate(Some Palms cannot use non-standard baud), incorrect flow control, or inadequate power(or requiring phantom power). The passive cables are likely not going to cut it for most of the newer Palms.

Still reading...


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
06/30/06 03:08 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Don't pay any attention to that, we are not dead yet. They are correct in that hotsync is a short, finite process. They are misleading you regarding the ability of either of comm channels in being able to transmit data for more than brief periods. What we are doing does not involve 'hotsync'. We are attempting to use the PDA in a manner similar to the connecting to a modem as described.

How big is that manual mention as being on the CD??? Any chance you could post it?

I found several posts on 3SI.org describing the exact symptoms you are experiencing. Some success has been made in getting them to work. Is your ECU overclocked?



Serial Modem Cradle



Quote:

Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap

garmin FAQ

Quote:

Q. Can I perform real-time tracking with my iQue and a laptop computer?
A. The Garmin iQue does not have the capability of performing real-time tracking. The iQue does not output data that the computer can use to determine its position for tracking purposes. The HotSync process is the only communications channel and does not have the ability to stay on continuously to transmit/receive data.

Q. Is it possible for the iQue 3600 to access the Internet?
A. There are several methods of accessing the Internet while using the iQue. First, use a serial modem cradle to connect through your desktop or laptop computer's Internet connection. Second, use a serial modem cradle that plugs into a standard phone line to connect to a remote ISP or dial-in (remote access) server. This second process is especially beneficial if you are away from your computer. Both processes are detailed in the iQue manual that is on the setup disk. Currently, the iQue 3600 does not support SDIO peripherals.







**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/30/06 11:43 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

Stephen,
The ecu is stock. The eprom is a keydiver but it is at stock frequencies. The manuals that I have seen are all on the link "garmin FAQ" or for convienience here. The serial cradle you linked to has the exact same pin out as the cable I bought. That one just has a plastic base as opposed to just a connector on mine.

I haven't played with any of this in a couple of days...family stuff.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
07/08/06 01:09 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I am not making any progress on this. I am starting to think the project is beyond me given my time constraints. I have about a month before I go back to Georgia and leave my car here. In that time I will be doing a motor swap.

Does someone want to take over the project?


s_firestone
(Ctrl-Alt-Boost)
07/08/06 06:43 PM
Re: data logger plus gps

I'll be happy to pursue it but I don't have $200+ to fork up on a garmin 3600 so I might be shooting blanks. We could put in a request over on 3Si with the upcoming HSLogger.


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