jepherz
(Too Clean)
05/16/11 01:01 AM
My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

A few years ago, I put in a used 2900 RPS clutch. 6 puck clutch with a combination of the copper pads and normal organic pads. The previous owner had problems with it slipping so he sent it back and they resurfaced the flywheel and gave him a brand new clutch disk. I put it in my car at this point and drove it for a few years with no problems. I never launched it or beat on it, and most of the miles it saw were highway and track miles. All of ab sudden it started slipping while I was leaving a stoplight on my way to work last summer. I pulled the entire assembly thinking the same thing happened again this time to me, and the flywheel didn't measure way out of tolerance, but since I didn't want to deal with it I just bought an XTD stage 4 to throw in. I finally got around to putting in the XTD and I'm having the same slipping problem. This clutch has a 6 puck unsprung disk, all copper pads. It drives fine when not under load but as soon as I give it more gas, RPMs start to climb.

I checked the slave cylinder to make sure I could push the piston in by hand and I could, so that's not holding it up. The clutch fork is also a little loose (has play showing the springs aren't being held up on the clutch). The pedal adjustment seems fine and it engages about where it always has and there is free play at the top of the pedal travel.

What the heck am I missing here? Is it possible something else in the drive train is broken or something and it doesn't have any noise or other indication? The car also drives fine at speed as long as I'm not trying to accelerate.

Any suggestions?


Galantvr41062
(Epic Build)
05/16/11 05:26 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

input shaft seal leak on the tranny. If you torqued everything down right that is my guess. You could also check the step height on the flywheel, it should be about .610".

DynastyLCD
(Dissapointing Member)
05/16/11 01:04 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

test for clutch drag? this would point towards a pedal assembly issue, or master adjustment.

hows the clutch fork? is it shimmed? does it sit in the middle of the boot?

also x2 on checking the input shaft seal. i just parted a totalled 2g fwd with my friends, only to find an ACT clutch with about 100 miles on it and redline MT90 fluid all over it.


jepherz
(Too Clean)
05/16/11 01:55 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Quoting GalantVR41062:

input shaft seal leak on the tranny. If you torqued everything down right that is my guess. You could also check the step height on the flywheel, it should be about .610".




I thought this would have been the case for first failure, but it wasn't. I'm thinking it's highly unlikely to be the case now but thanks for the suggestion. I really don't want to pull this thing again..


jepherz
(Too Clean)
05/16/11 01:58 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Quoting DynastyLCD:

test for clutch drag? this would point towards a pedal assembly issue, or master adjustment.

hows the clutch fork? is it shimmed? does it sit in the middle of the boot?

also x2 on checking the input shaft seal. i just parted a totalled 2g fwd with my friends, only to find an ACT clutch with about 100 miles on it and redline MT90 fluid all over it.




How can I test for clutch drag? I will double check the adjustment, but if anything it feels like it is engaging too low to the floor.

The clutch fork is not shimmed, and I will check where it lines up tonight if I get a chance.

It sounds like you guys are saying it has to be the clutch slipping, right? If there's no problems driving the car at speed there can't be anything else in the driveline at fault, right?


DynastyLCD
(Dissapointing Member)
05/16/11 10:06 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

to test for clutch drag, find a good open parking lot, or open stretch of flat ground that your car would normally not roll on with the e-brake off. turn off 2 step if you have dsmlink, put the clutch in, put it in 1st, and rev it to redline. if the car moves forward at all, the clutch is dragging.

Nate
(May I have your autograph?)
05/16/11 10:08 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Broken axle?

Galantvr41062
(Epic Build)
05/16/11 11:50 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

worn or stripped out output shaft/sleeve in the transfer case?

Nabeel
(Member +)
05/17/11 09:15 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

could be broken axle or transfer case. How are you sure this is clutch slipping? I had transfer case issue. I thought clutch slipping at first. Also an axle comes out once & also thought clutch problem.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/18/11 10:38 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Had the same exact problem... Iím not sure which component caused the problem. I bought my galant clutch was slipping, Bought a new spec clutch, within 300 miles same problem. When i replaced the clutch again I changed the clutch fork and pivot ball. I also had my clutch pedal assembly rebuilt. after looking over both clutches that slipped they still looked great min spots on flywheel and the discs looked new. Since then i havnt had any issues.



Jesse


jepherz
(Too Clean)
05/18/11 02:46 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

So you think it was your pedal assembly somehow? Can anyone explain how this would even be possible? I could understand the pedal assembly not pushing the master rod IN far enough, but not restricting its retraction...

I don't think there's any possibility for any broken or stripped splines or half shafts, as this would have been very noticeable and would make horrible noise. For those of you who had "broken" transfer cases, wasn't there a lot of noise to go along with this too? The transfer case really isn't complicated enough to fail in any other way that stripping out gears, is it?

I will see if I can check out the pedal assembly to clutch fork movement, but the fork and pivot ball are brand new within a 5,000 miles or so. And again, I can't see either of these being worn out as causing problems with the clutch pedal retracting and the clutch engaging.


Nabeel
(Member +)
05/18/11 04:11 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

On my case. there were only little chat when my transfer case gone. I never expect a transfer case issue. Luckly I had another transfer case at that time. I did not know til I changed the clutch.

14u2nV
(Resident Pedobear)
05/18/11 08:11 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Maybe for shits and giggles, try a smaller rod in your slave, or back it off and put some washers. Maybe it's not letting the fork pull back far enough to completely disengage. Or maybe it's the wrong/broken TOB? My other thought was stripped splines on one of the axles where it goes through the spindle. Maybe it could be completely stripped, but the Nut on the outside holds it all tight until power goes to it. Lonnnnng shot, but sounds plausible. I don't see how it could be anything but the actual clutch area. Pedal won't have anything to do with the clutch when it's engaged. You could take the slave off and the clutch "should" be completely engaged, checking that would be interesting, having it running on the lift might work. Did you use the same pressure plate from before? Maybe it's too worn out or not strong enough in the first place.

jepherz
(Too Clean)
05/19/11 09:28 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Completely new pressure plate/clutch plate/flywheel, so that shouldn't be the issue. Also, the TOB was replaced with the fork and pivot ball just a few years ago, so that's not it either.

GSX_TC
(295hp 35r BR4)
05/20/11 01:48 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

I had this happen to me, turns out it was an oil leak gettin on the clutch causing it to slip half the time

jepherz
(Too Clean)
06/09/11 11:21 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Here's a dumb question... Would the torque spec for the 6 or so bolts around a higher rated pressure plate be different? In all of my clutch installs, I've used factory torque specs (from memory, it was less than 20 ft/lbs). Is it possible that both aftermarket pressure plates that I've used, about the same torque spec, aren't being maximized in terms of pressure plate force because the bolts holding it on aren't on tight enough? Please tell me this is possible....I'm all out of ideas besides this...

chrisfullwood
(Member +)
06/09/11 11:34 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

The pressure plate to flywheel bolts should be torqued 11-15lbs.
To answer your questions, those bolts are just there to hold it, there shouldn't be any impact on function by not over torquing them.

it sounds to me like there is a lack of pressure on the clutch, which can only come from the hydraulic system. the clutch will hold what it will hold, as long as it is being held properly against the flywheel right?
So logic would seem to point you towards your hydraulic system. As long as your clutch pedal is adjusted correctly, and clutch pedal free play is correct, there has to be a leak somewhere, either (as someone said earlier) onto the clutch or, a tiny leak cause slight pressure bleed off.

Have you had to add any fluid to the clutch reservior at all?


jepherz
(Too Clean)
06/09/11 12:31 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Okay, good thoughts on the pressure plate bolt torque, it was just a last minute thing I figured was a possibility. I know I torqued them to 16 ft/lbs though, so that shouldn't be it.

I think you are picturing the hydraulic system backwards. It should have no affect on the pressure plate if not engaged. I should technically be able to unbolt the slave cylinder while driving in gear and have no problems continuing on. I did check the slave and clutch fork operation, to ensure that it wasn't restricting the retraction of the pressure plate springs. It wasn't. The fork moves normally and as soon as you let off the clutch, the fork has a little bit of play in it and you can push the slave rod back further by hand.

I'm at wits end with this damn thing. Any more ideas?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/09/11 08:20 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Too much power?





Sorry.


chrisfullwood
(Member +)
06/09/11 10:44 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

I stand corrected, you are absolutely right.
to much power.... lol is there such a thing?
I pulled up mitchel, the tool the dealers use, and this is what it had to say about clutch slipping

1. Pressure springs worn
2. oily, greasy or worn facings
3. incorrect clutch alignment
4. warped clutch disc or pressure plate
5. binding release levels or clutch pedal

It sucks, but i would almost start over and check everything, you might even have to seperate the engine/trans to make sure everything is aligned ok, and button it all back up.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/10/11 05:28 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Is the clutch fine when you first begin driving in the morning then get progressively worse?

How much clevis pin free play do you have?


14u2nV
(Resident Pedobear)
06/10/11 06:40 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Is it possible the flywheel has been resurfaced too many times or too much was taken off, and now that extra little missing material won't let the clutch hold tight?

Something else I thought of. All of your calipers are from other cars right. Are you SURE the pressure to each is right? Maybe your front/rear is off and not releasing completely, putting a heavy strain on the drive, making it slip?? Have you checked to make sure none of the wheels are dragging on the calipers or bigger rotors? Could more rotational mass be making it slip?

That's all I can think of besides what's been said.


jepherz
(Too Clean)
06/10/11 10:29 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Quoting Darksyne:

Is the clutch fine when you first begin driving in the morning then get progressively worse?

How much clevis pin free play do you have?




Nope, it slips right away, although it get's a little bit worse. I honestly can't back out of my driveway (pretty steep) right after starting the car.


jepherz
(Too Clean)
06/10/11 10:32 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Quoting 14u2nV:

Is it possible the flywheel has been resurfaced too many times or too much was taken off, and now that extra little missing material won't let the clutch hold tight?

Something else I thought of. All of your calipers are from other cars right. Are you SURE the pressure to each is right? Maybe your front/rear is off and not releasing completely, putting a heavy strain on the drive, making it slip?? Have you checked to make sure none of the wheels are dragging on the calipers or bigger rotors? Could more rotational mass be making it slip?

That's all I can think of besides what's been said.




Good out of the box thoughts. Front calipers are camaro, but I don't think this is the case as the car rolls around and I can push it with the pedal up.

Flywheel, I know the last one had been resurfaced. However, if the step height is correct for the pressure plate, there's no reason the clutch shouldn't at least engage correctly. But, with the newest clutch, it's a brand new flywheel.

This is frustrating, I'm going to have to pull this damn thing again Thanks for the help so far guys.


toybreaker
(it's peace of mind at 100 mph plus)
06/10/11 11:01 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

put vehicle on lift

"three foot" it

(hold the brake with your right foot, and roll the heel of your right foot onto the throttle pedal, select third gear and let the clutch up with your left foot).

Anything in the driveline turn?


... a broken center diff and/or t-case issues can be sorted this way, as can many clutch problems ...

If only the wheels at one end turn, firmly pull handbrake

put vehicle in first gear and release clutch.

Listen carefully with a stethescope and the problem will be found in short order.

... "swishing" sounds are likely to be the clutch,

... "crunching" sounds will be mechanical faults like stripped t-case spines or center diff issues


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
06/10/11 11:49 AM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

Quoting jepherz:

I don't think there's any possibility for any broken or stripped splines or half shafts, as this would have been very noticeable and would make horrible noise.



If the CV joint is worn enough then I've seen the two halves spin independently in the boot with no outward indication. The boot will get torn up eventually.

Double-check the joints and that axles are fully seated.

If you already had the clutch adjusted properly then you shouldn't need to again but it wouldn't hurt to give the hydraulic system another once over:
Clutch Adjustment


jepherz
(Too Clean)
06/10/11 06:16 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

I really appreciate the comments! I'll try all of this stuff next week sometime.

Terry Posten
(Old Balls)
06/10/11 07:13 PM
Re: My "clutch" keeps slipping, what am I missing?

When I bought my car it had a broken front diff from being towed with the rear on the ground.

When I test drove it, I broke it completely to where only the back wheels were driving the car forward.

The motor acted like it was slipping at the clutch. There was no noise after the first bang when the diff let go. The car drove fine under light throttle and as soon as boost hit it would still go forward but not matched to the revs.

I would bet that your issue is inside the tranny.



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