DR1665
(Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips)
11/02/10 07:25 PM
Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

I'm getting feedback from Galant rallyistas that tying the roll cage into the front strut towers through the firewall is a must for longevity. Yes, this improves structural rigidity, but it's critical when the vehicle is expected to be airborne on a regular basis. In the broad strokes, this requires punching through the firewall in a couple places, but those locations present a lot of potential collateral damage. Not so much where the sill bars (just above the floor pan), but behind the dash bar. On the driver side, the brake booster takes makes things tight on the engine side, while a couple electrical junction blocks get in the way internally.

Has anyone here run a cage through like this? Anyone have pictures of such an implementation they could share? I've got a couple weeks before kcpaz will have room for 195/2000 at the shop, so I'm looking to make the most of the time. Appreciate the feedback.


DR1665
(Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips)
11/03/10 11:22 AM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

I've since decided to forgo intra-firewall shenanigans in favor of fender bars (between the fender and unibody outside the engine bay), but I am still interested in seeing how you guys stiffened up the front end. Anyone? Bueller?

grocery_getter
(Senior Crab)
11/03/10 11:30 AM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

I thought a saw pictures from Teeter's and Larry's car a long time ago. You can always PM them.

misterfixit
(Victory Runner)
11/03/10 06:22 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Look in the homologation papers i posted. all of the safety devices and ralliart group a cages are shown explicitly in there.

Rich


curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
11/03/10 07:43 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Brian hooking the strut towers in really helps and I plan on doing it as well but really the best way to do it is cut out the area oversized do the tube and then replace the sheetmetal with 2 pieces of sheetmetal with a half circle in each if that makes sense. you could also replace the whole area with thicker metal that has been bead rolled behind the brake booster and the clutch master to get rid of firewall flex.

Then build your own strut tower brace that connects to the firewall as well as across you could also tie the firewall to the dash bar while your at it. But might cause you to need to remove the dash.

Dimple die plates on the A pillars also look super sexy.

click me


DR1665
(Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips)
11/04/10 03:16 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Quoting misterfixit:

Look in the homologation papers i posted. all of the safety devices and ralliart group a cages are shown explicitly in there.




Rich - Thank you as always for taking the time to share your library with us. Unfortunately, despite trying multiple links in your library thread in "How To," I was unable to locate the homologation papers. I found all the manuals, PR brochures, the amazing Galant HSR, body measurements, and countless electrical schematics, but did not come across the JDM trans/engine/homologation papers.

[url=http://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=UBB11&Number=911157&Forum=f11&Words="homologation%20papers"%20-"Re%3A"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=911157&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post911157]click[/url]
This thread, correct?

I'm off to Google in the meantime.

EDIT: Found them. They are hosted here (following link), however the post in How To does not seem to link to them.
click

And thank you for your advice as well, Curtis. Dimple-cut gussets are on the agenda. Easily A-pillar, B-pillar, but I also like the rear strut tower brace in those pictures and will be looking to do something with that stuff under the dash for leg protection.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/04/10 04:06 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

here are some pics













jepherz
(Too Clean)
11/04/10 04:41 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Larry's car used custom Wilwood style brake master cylinders, so his routing may be impossible for you.

misterfixit
(Victory Runner)
11/04/10 05:13 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Sorry, forgot to mention its in the library!

Anyhoo. Here are the last three steel cages. Mitsubishi motors, Ralliart inc. and safety devices. The earlier aluminium and bolted cages were outlawed so these are the welded ones.

1




2




3




The earlier one (2) should show the tower connection, the later ones are similar.. and it literally is straight through the dash through the firewall to the turret.

Hope this helps,

Rich


DR1665
(Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips)
11/04/10 06:17 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Thanks for posting the individual screencaps, Rich.

Obviously, none of those designs are legal for rally competition anymore (especially not here in 'Merica). So many dead tubes and flimsy-looking bolt-in bits. (shudder) I did like the shots of the boxed-in rear turrets and the triangulation up to the front turrets. Perhaps I can swing a few extra bucks and talk Kent into door and sill bars (which would allow me to see about getting a log book issued). Those would make excellent points to tie into the front turrets.

Ducktape, that's a beefy tower bar! Dig the strut tops too. I like the triangulation to the center of the firewall, but suspect there might be an intrusion risk after a couple hard landings. You get that thing airborne at all? How is that center bit supported? Do those diagonals pass through to the ends of the factory dash bar?

My buddy with 82/2000 (it's a rally car) took a 3ft deep water crossing at speed and made it through, but as his front end isn't tied into the cage, the front end took a head-on and downward hit. Now the nose is sagging, buckling the fenders, and the sidemembers are separating from the firewall, even tearing the wire harness. I'd be concerned bracing the front turrets without tying them into the cage structure could get hairy in a head-on or front 3/4 shot.

By the weekend, I intend to take a good, long look at the firewall in these locations. Wires can be easily (albeit, painstakingly) extended, but punching pipe through the firewall will take some planning. I like the simplicity of fender bars (which tie the outside of each turret to the door hinge locations), but nothing beats a fully integrated cage.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion, gents.


curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
11/04/10 06:52 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Yea strut tower bar is sweet. I have pictures of Larry's car and others on the harddrive some where, it will take some time but I'll post them up if I find them.

curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
11/04/10 07:42 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Larry's car








Ray Castro's






Not sure















Larry Parker
(Rally Member)
11/05/10 06:48 AM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

I opted to NOT tie them in due to the added headache... I plated the tops with some waterjet .250 plate and left it at that. I didnt notice any issues, but it can help when you stuff the car in the woods.


Larry



DR1665
(Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips)
11/05/10 11:46 AM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Quoting Larry Parker:


I opted to NOT tie them in due to the added headache... I plated the tops with some waterjet .250 plate and left it at that. I didnt notice any issues, but it can help when you stuff the car in the woods.



Believe me, I am all about avoiding the headaches at this point. It's been five years and I've come to the decision it's better to run a less-than-perfect car, than to never finish building the perfect one.

Your car remains an inspiration, Larry, and not just for me.

Quoting curtis:






This is why I'm running the SRT4 IC (and the picture what helped me figure out how to install it.) As Larry said, it fits nicely around a DSM radiator. Considering they can be had for $20-$50, I might pick up a spare or two.

Quoting curtis:






First thing I notice - door cards. I need to figure something out. Saran wrap with gooey black tar can suck it, and factory door cards won't fit. Those are really nice and suggest it's best to wait for the door/sill bars to be installed before finalizing their design. (Though I would like to know the material used for those...)

I also notice the door bars. No doubt, they're solid, and I like the double bar action, but I think I'll opt for more of an shallow, gusseted X in that location.

Quoting curtis:






Looks like Larry ran the harnesses all the way back in the car. Very nicely tied together back there, although I can't make out how the cage is tied into the rear turrets in that picture. Looks more like wheel wheel (which is dome-shaped, and likely on the stronger side). The bulkhead between passengers and fuel cell is clean as well.

Quoting curtis:






Kinda need this bit to move the car to the shop for the cage. Once it comes back, I suspect I'll remove it, clean it, and address the 4WS lines.

Quoting curtis:






Elevated shifter and e-brake are on my #todo list fa show.

Quoting curtis:






HDPE FTW. Great, lightweight protection of brake and fuel lines, and apparently useful for retaining GVR4 lower mouldings. Might be a bit of a bitch to access anything under that during a 20 minute service, so I suspect I'll try to come up with another way to mount mine.

Larry also came up with a sweet design for a front skidplate that I'll be looking to replicate before too long.

Quoting curtis:






Please tell me that's an ice water reservoir for the AWIC or cool suits. That can't possibly be a fuel cell. Who would think that was a good idea?

Quoting curtis:






Illegal in rally. Exhaust must exit behind the driver/co-driver. (But cool for sure.)

This is good stuff, gents. Thanks for taking the time.


jepherz
(Too Clean)
11/05/10 01:08 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

^^ yeah, for AWIC ice.

Larry Parker
(Rally Member)
11/05/10 04:44 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

You can see a bit more of the rear towers here along with the fronts... Door cards where made from 1/8 textured ABS plastic from a local source...







DR1665
(Kill him in the face with Wilson Phillips)
11/05/10 05:40 PM
Re: Roll cage tied into strut towers through the firewall.

Thanks for the additional pictures, Larry. You da man. Very much appreciated.


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