tektic
(Senior Member)
11/19/15 09:29 AM
cut oil squirter holes?

Has anyone done this to an n/t block?
If you know a place that can do it properly in ny please let me know.

I have a wide block g63b I want to bring up to turbo spec.


prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/19/15 12:23 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I only forsee a lot of discussion on why not to do this. cause org...

3....2.....1.....


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/19/15 01:12 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I want to do a stock rebuild to turbo spec. That would include oil squirters (period)

89Mirageman
(It's no Mirage, man)
11/19/15 02:37 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Are you willing to pay shipping both ways to have this done? If not I would make sure they're local.

fuel
("Just to be pedantic!")
11/19/15 05:27 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I honestly wouldn't bother - it's not an absolute necessity and builders often remove them to improve oil pressure and remove a point of failure. The rods have an oil squirter hole in them as well.

diambo4life
(Member +)
11/19/15 08:09 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Yup. Ask this guy whose oil squirtter backed out and ended up spinning 2 rod bearings and destroying some $$$ rods.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/20/15 12:40 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Quoting fuel:

The rods have an oil squirter hole in them as well.




Stock rods have oil squirter holes in them?


thomcasey
(I ain't no puny human)
11/20/15 01:05 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

The stockers do. I know my Eagle rods do not, but they are on floating pins also, so they are oiled from the squirters. If you look at the stock rods, you can see the oil galley

belize1334
(well bread and nobly conceived)
11/20/15 01:13 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

^^ Disagree. The stock rods have pressed-in wrist pins. An oiling hole would be completely pointless. Some aftermarket rods feature an internal oiling hole for the floating pin but most do not. Typically the oiling of the wrist pin is achieved through scavenging of oil from the cylinder wall, which then collects in the piston skirt and oils the wrist pin progressively from the piston to the rod. Many engines do not use oil-squirters and still run partial of fully floating wrist-pins. The oil squirters job as a lubricating aid is secondary to it's function in cooling the pistons, hence the use of oil squirters in turbo applications. The choice to use or not use oil-squirters isn't about lubricating the pistons, it's about a compromise between oil pressure, cost-to-install, and piston dome heat (which isn't really a problem for low-to-mid power levels with forged internals).

thomcasey
(I ain't no puny human)
11/20/15 01:26 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

If that is the case, they why the holes from the rod bearing to the wrist pin (with matching holes in the Rod bearings themselves). I would be interested to know the purpose of them.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/20/15 04:46 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Stock rods definitely have holes that go to the wrist pins. My eagles do not. I never noticed cylinder wall squirt ports on the stockers though. Not that I ever looked.

Fish
(Member)
11/21/15 07:39 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?




There is no oil port to the wrist pin. It all goes out this side port on the rod


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/21/15 07:50 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Open foot insert mouth. I never actually had a stock rod in my hand only eagle rods. Thank you for clearing that up.

Fish
(Member)
11/21/15 09:50 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I didn't know it had any oil ports in it. I just happen to have a set from my core engine out in the shop right now.

r4pt0x
(Member)
11/23/15 08:13 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

These ports only deliver the oil needed at the piston pin for lubrication. The oil squirters deliver a constant oil stream for piston cooling, which is definitely needed for turbo applications and is even present on most 4G63 & 4G67 N/A DOHCs for a reason. Remove them and you will have massive knock problems, especially when using very low octane fuel as you have to in the US. Piston failure is also very likely as the pistons run much higher temperature, especially if EGR is also disabled.


When doing a proper engine rebuild, the regulator valve bolts and the squirters themselves should be replaced but never removed. I always secured the bolts with some loctite on all engines I've rebuild and never had them come loose, even on engines that generate and/or have to take a lot of vibration (rallye). The few clogged up squirters/valves i've seen were always caused by bad and/or old oil.


prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/23/15 08:26 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

True to most of that. You can run without squirters without knock issues. Anyone running the 2.4 block will tell you that, or the misc blocks that are sans squirters.

Not a requirement as thousands run without them, but they do help with piston crown cooling quite a bit.


EMX5636
(Carbon Fiber Cage)
11/23/15 09:10 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I've had an NT block in my car since I broke the last 2.3 and went back to a 2.0. No issues with aftermarket pistons.

donniekak
(Member ++)
11/23/15 10:52 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Quoting r4pt0x:

These ports only deliver the oil needed at the piston pin for lubrication. The oil squirters deliver a constant oil stream for piston cooling, which is definitely needed for turbo applications and is even present on most 4G63 & 4G67 N/A DOHCs for a reason. Remove them and you will have massive knock problems, especially when using very low octane fuel as you have to in the US. Piston failure is also very likely as the pistons run much higher temperature, especially if EGR is also disabled.


When doing a proper engine rebuild, the regulator valve bolts and the squirters themselves should be replaced but never removed. I always secured the bolts with some loctite on all engines I've rebuild and never had them come loose, even on engines that generate and/or have to take a lot of vibration (rallye). The few clogged up squirters/valves i've seen were always caused by bad and/or old oil.



I'm running a non turbo block with no squirters at 40psi, no knock issues on e85. The same setup had no issues running 480whp at 25psi on pump gas.


89Mirageman
(It's no Mirage, man)
11/23/15 10:57 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Quoting prove_it:

I only forsee a lot of discussion on why not to do this. cause org...

3....2.....1.....




What #'s should I play today?


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/23/15 03:50 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

All I asked was who can do this in or around NYC.

EMX5636
(Carbon Fiber Cage)
11/23/15 06:49 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard of it being done. People either use them if they have them, or they block them off or swap to an NT block. I'm sure it's possible to do, just saying it's not needed if you are running a forged bottom end. I had bad luck with the 100mm crank, and/or some forged slugs and factory squirters anyway. I've seen a lot of them bent or broken off and laying in the pan.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/23/15 10:28 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

If installed properly, there's no way for anything to make contact with an oil squirter short of major engine failures. Wen installing aftermarket pistons they usualy need to be repositioned or bent differently.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/24/15 09:19 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I had to adjust them to clear my wisecos.

EMX5636
(Carbon Fiber Cage)
11/24/15 07:04 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Correct, I had to re-position them significantly for the stroker crank.

Another point I just read about this debate is probably true that I didn't even think of. The factory 1G piston is 7.8:1 CR and has a considerable dish. Most forged pistons today are either 8.5 or 9:1+. That should allow more aluminum up in the crown area to dissipate heat better anyway.

Also, the factory pistons have a hole that the tip of the squirter fits up inside, so the oil stays up in the crown longer. I've never seen an aftermarket piston with this, so I think the functionality is probably greatly reduced, on top of the forged vs cast argument.


But to answer your question, and not continue this never-ending debate... Google search 4g64 oil squirters, it looks like a few Evo guys have had this done when building a 2.4 for somewhere in the 150-400 dollar range. Maybe some of them are local to you and could tell you where they had it done.


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/25/15 08:21 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

What do you guys think of this as an alternative ?

EMX5636
(Carbon Fiber Cage)
11/26/15 02:25 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I don't see that working very effectively in a vertical stroke engine. Remember Porsche is flat like a Scooby/airplane etc.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/26/15 04:22 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

That's just one of the places I saw it being done.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/27/15 10:54 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I don't see why it wouldn't work. The idea is that your making a channel from the bearing for oil to be "leaked". With enough oil pressure I'd imagine that the oil would squirt far enough the piston.

Now, I don't like the idea because your adding a possibly large loss of oil at the crank. Could see oiling issues with our already weak oiling system in the 4g63.


EMX5636
(Carbon Fiber Cage)
11/28/15 07:31 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I agree some oil will leak/spray towards the piston. Problem is, it's parallel with the rod, so most of the oil will just hit the pin area of the piston, and never make it to the crown, where the cooling really should be directed.

I do however, completely agree with your statement about losing valuable oil pressure to the crank/rod bearings. Even though it's the last place the oil goes in the bottom end, I don't know if I would like the "metered leak" that would likely drop pressure, especially at idle. The factory squirters have check valves that only open at higher pressures, conserving oil at idle/low RPM.


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/28/15 08:23 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

So with no balance shaft and stock size or only slightly enlarged pressure relief valve opening, does this sound like a better option?

donniekak
(Member ++)
11/29/15 02:27 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Depends on the rod side clearance. A mod like this depending on how large the cuts are can effectively triple or more the rod side clearance pressure loss. It could at least cause a localized pressure loss at the worst possible place in the engine, at the worst possible time. The upper rod bearing at peak cylinder pressure.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/29/15 07:55 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

The oiling hole in the center of the stock rod doesn't have any of thesee effects because its centralized?

donniekak
(Member ++)
11/29/15 10:57 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

It does bleed off some pressure, but you can only bleed off so much before you have an issue. If you take a bucket with a couple small holes in it you can still fill it with a hose, as long as the hose is constantly running. Keep adding holes and eventually it won't hold any water.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/29/15 06:40 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I was just asking if your opinion was that having the grooves on both sides made a difference than the the hole in the center.

If you have more pressure to begin with because the relief valve isn't ported and dumping as much oil back to the pan I don't see the issue


prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/30/15 09:05 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

The issue with that is your building an engine with the hope that it will be ok. There is no precedent on this and your fully experimenting. Now if your pockets are deep and can afford to redo all the work if it fails, then I say go for it. Now if your on a tight budget, I'd say you may want to re-think your ideas and goals, because your talking about a mod that could cause total engine failure, that is not un-doable, and completely experimental.

It could work, or it won't. No one on here will be able to make you feel better about doing this and give you the comfort you might need to move forward and do this.


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/30/15 12:34 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I agree totally.

EMX5636
(Carbon Fiber Cage)
12/01/15 08:21 AM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

I agree with Prove_it. But you are better off adding the factory turbo squirters as long as you have provisions in the wide block for them if you really insist on having them. Much less trial and error than the rod idea, just might be a bit more money up front.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
12/01/15 05:34 PM
Re: cut oil squirter holes?

Adding some interesting info. Was re-ringing a Honda V6 today and I never noticed this, but the factory rods have 2 slots on each side of the rod that will channel oil to the wrist pin. It looks like its an oil bath that hits the wrist pin and slashes all over.

So if the factory does this, then it must work. Now with that said, it's hard to say how much oil volume is needed for this "leak".



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