GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/18/14 06:11 PM
COP Issues

So a while ago, my car started running like crap, and I thought I bent some valves. Turned out a coil on my COP system was fried. Here's what the coil looked like.





I swapped out all 4 coils and everything was good. I also completely rewired the setup with heavier gauge wire, to alleviate any issues that may have been caused there. I chalked the issue up to a bad junkyard coil, and called it good. The car has been running great on the COP setup ever since...until now. Fast forward from the last time I had an issue till now (about 1,500 miles later). I've been driving the car to work while the weather is still nice. I'm almost home after a 40 mile drive, and the car starts to cut out a bit. I can tell it's the same feeling I got last time when the coils shit out. I make it home fine, and pull the car in the Garage. I immediately pull out my stock coil and plug wire set and swap it in. I hit the key and the car runs perfect.

At this point, I do a visual inspection on the coils. No crazy damage like last time. All the coils look good, but I know one or more of them are garbage. I used up all my spares, so I can't just swap in a new set like I did last time. I derped around on the net trying to find the test specs for the coils and didn't find much. However, I did find a post from a guy who had a ground issue and fried one of his coils. It looks strikingly similar to the first bad coil I had:


Here's the thread ---> click
Quoting dude from internet:

The engine ground decided to take itself off the engine. After about 30 min of no ground, a coil exploded and my throttle cable is slightly welded. Dumb mistake . At least I figured out that the coils I'm using are 2.7L Dodge Intrepid coils and they're $50 a pop!




After reading that thread, it makes me wonder if the coils aren't grounded well?

Here are my questions:
-What are the test specs for the intrepid coils, and how do you test them?
-Can you add a secondary ground or something to the COP system to supplement the ground already provided through the ignition harness?
-Anyone ever have any issues with COP coils shitting out on a consistent basis?
-Should I add more engine grounds. Right now I have a custom ground kit I built consisting of about four 8ga wires running from a body ground to various places on the trans and block.

I would have already swapped the stock ignition system back in if I had a good mounting point for the coil pack that actually looked clean. I'd like to continue using the COP setup if at all possible, but not if I keep having issues with reliability. Can you guys help a brotha out? Thanks in advance.


transparentdsm
(I have to say something dumb Member)
09/18/14 07:23 PM
Re: COP Issues

on the side of the coil with the numbers and letters mine are different. top left is : 04609 bottom left is : 088ah bottom right is : 0525. im not sure if its a different coil as i bought it already built, but all 4 are matching. maybe the ones you have are from a different car.

Vader
(Junior Member)
09/18/14 08:19 PM
Re: COP Issues

How long have you been running that particular cop setup?

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/18/14 08:21 PM
Re: COP Issues

Upon closer visual inspection, I found this. Now, I'm wondering when/how this happened? It clearly got hot...



I tested all the coils I have. They all measure 0.6 - 0.8 ohms (testing between the 2 connector terminals). Even the bad coil measured ~0.6, so I'm going to make the assumption that testing the coil's resistance isn't a very good way to tell a good coil from a bad one.



Quoting Vader:

How long have you been running that particular cop setup?



This system has about 2,000+ miles on it. I also used it on 1813 for a while, so some more can be added there.


SouthCaliVR4
(Gas Analyzer)
09/18/14 11:56 PM
Re: COP Issues

Sorry to say the finding of more damage awaits you. while running a missing ground will slowly overheat things but during cranking it'll take any route it can & overheat melt any circuit that cant take the load.

Vader
(Junior Member)
09/19/14 12:26 AM
Re: COP Issues

I don't believe testing a coil with an ohm meter will give you the results that you are looking for. The coil winding's are far to small and spaced to closely together for your ohm meter to push a voltage through. If you had access to an megger to actually push a variable voltage through the coil, you could possibly get a result.

I would say at this point figure out where the coil harness is grounded and check/clean the ground. Replace the pigtail pictured and associated coil. If your still in the dog house after that i would be looking in to building a new cop harness. Are all the connections on your harness soldered or did you use asshole connectors?

I've had a cop set up on #224 for about 4k with out any problems and we're both using the same style coils.


rgeier11
(sled driving mullet brain)
09/19/14 10:16 AM
Re: COP Issues

Ditch the COP setup altogether. People have gone 9's, possibly faster on the stock coils.

bradrs
(Member)
09/19/14 10:23 AM
Re: COP Issues


The COP systems do change the way the spark current flows to ground, compared to the stock dual output coils. So a good ground to the head is more important than our OEM configuration. But that probably isn't what you are seeing here.

It looks more like long dwell(or excess energy in) is leading to severe overheating. A short in the wiring would do it too. I'd tell you about all the coils that I melted in a similar fashion while testing ignitions, but then you'd want proof.:) Maybe the problem is being made worse by underhood heat. Is your alternator output good?

Just out of curiousity, are you using the COP on an otherwise stock ignition? If so, it is generally a performance downgrade from the OE coils, comparing new to new.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/19/14 03:34 PM
Re: COP Issues

Quoting SouthCaliVR4:

Sorry to say the finding of more damage awaits you. while running a missing ground will slowly overheat things but during cranking it'll take any route it can & overheat melt any circuit that cant take the load.



There's no missing ground, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. I actually have a ground system that's more robust than the factory system. In addition to the factory grounds, I have added my own in various places on the car.


Quoting bradrs:

The COP systems do change the way the spark current flows to ground, compared to the stock dual output coils. So a good ground to the head is more important than our OEM configuration. But that probably isn't what you are seeing here.

It looks more like long dwell(or excess energy in) is leading to severe overheating. A short in the wiring would do it too. I'd tell you about all the coils that I melted in a similar fashion while testing ignitions, but then you'd want proof.:) Maybe the problem is being made worse by underhood heat. Is your alternator output good?

Just out of curiousity, are you using the COP on an otherwise stock ignition? If so, it is generally a performance downgrade from the OE coils, comparing new to new.




Thanks for the info. My alternator is brand new. Typical output voltage is around 14.2v according to ECMlink.

I am running the COP system on a stock ignition system (no CDI box). The main reason for this is because of my Magnus SMIM. There's not a great place to mount the coil pack where it still looks clean...at least not as clean as the COP system. In addition, the area I want to custom mount the stock coil requires extra long spark leads, which need to be purchased individually. A typical wire set wont work for a remotely mounted coil pack. In short, the COP was just an easier option for me at the time. At this point, it is proving to be more of a pain though, and I'm looking into other options for an ignition setup.

So, if keeping the COP is my goal, what would you suggest, Bradrs?


slugsgomoo
(god hates stupid people)
09/19/14 03:51 PM
Re: COP Issues

Just FYI I'm running a magnus SMIM, factory coil, factory wires and all it took was the ~40 dollar JMF coil bracket, fits great.

turbowop
(Hard Snarker)
09/19/14 04:04 PM
Re: COP Issues

That JMF bracket won't work on cars that still use AC.

Me and Andre fabbed me a bracket that puts my stock coil under my SMIM, but I had to custom make wires from an MSD kit. The stock leads were too short.

I'd like to go COP to simplify things and clean up the bay as well, but too many horror stories like this keeps me away.


bradrs
(Member)
09/19/14 05:45 PM
Re: COP Issues


Quoting GSTwithPSI:

I am running the COP system on a stock ignition system (no CDI box). The main reason for this is because of my Magnus SMIM. There's not a great place to mount the coil pack where it still looks clean...at least not as clean as the COP system. In addition, the area I want to custom mount the stock coil requires extra long spark leads, which need to be purchased individually. A typical wire set wont work for a remotely mounted coil pack. In short, the COP was just an easier option for me at the time. At this point, it is proving to be more of a pain though, and I'm looking into other options for an ignition setup.

So, if keeping the COP is my goal, what would you suggest, Bradrs?




The problem with COP is that the dwell from the ECU doesn't work optimally with the dwell for the coils. A CDI like the ARC-2 is a quick solution. A really nice guy even went out of the way to make them plug n play.

But to be honest, I'd want to track down why you are burning up coils before changing the coils out. It could be something else causing the issue. And if so, changing the ignition may not solve the problem, you might just wind up with a burnt out CDI box too.

Have you double checked your wiring to make sure the coils are in series as they should be. I have occasionally seen people wire them in parallel. I'm surprised your PTU wasn't fried also. Does the PTU still seem to work? It that makes me wonder if there wasn't a short that was the cause of the coil being cooked, because a PTU can only supply so much current on these cars.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/19/14 09:10 PM
Re: COP Issues

I wire the system up according to this video: click
And this thread (same thing): click

I have enough stuff to build second COP plate, so I decided to completely redo the whole system. I got a new set of coils (all 4) and rewired the whole thing. I didn't reuse anything from the other COP system I was having issues with. I bolted the new plate in and the car fired right up. I also added a couple ground wires going directly to the head, which terminate at a clean body point. I'm going to keep an eye on the system and check the connectors a few times a week.

I screwed with trying to find a mounting point for a custom bracket for the stock coils, but it was going to be a huge pain in the ass. Especially with the intake manifold still in the car, it's almost impossible to get positioned to mock up a bracket.

I thought about something like this:


But I don't love how it looks, and it also requires custom spark leads which I don't have just laying around. I'm going to give the new COP another run and see how it performs. Thanks very much to everyone who helped out in this thread. I appreciate it.


bradrs
(Member)
09/19/14 10:20 PM
Re: COP Issues

That install looks like it is wired correctly, but (and I don't mean offense to the guy who wrote it) that looks super ugly to have that many solder joints all over this one little subharness. I understand he did it because he was working with a bunch of precut pigtails, so he did what he had to connect them.

One thing to keep in mind with your ground points on your head. I can't tell if your valve cover is painted or anodized. But anodized aluminum doesn't make for a very good ground path either. On the stock coils, the spark current basically recirculates across the head and doesn't go to the system ground. But with the COP, you are completely changing the spark ground path, so that it has to go through the system ground.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/20/14 09:36 AM
Re: COP Issues

My valve cover is just painted. I'll post up some pictures of the grounds I added to the head in a bit. So far, the car seems to be running fine, but that's not to say it doesn't shit out in the near future.

Could you explain a bit about how the spark ground path is changed? I'm trying to comprehend how I could improve the ground side of this circuit (the harness). Or, would that even help?

Since I have you here answering questions, could you take a quick look at this thread when you have time? click

^The Denso coils have a third wire exclusively for a ground. I would love to fab up a system like this and try it out on my car, but I'm not familiar with all the technical specifics of these particular coils (and honestly, I'm not even exactly sure what coils they are...Civic coils?). I gather from the few hints you've alluded to, you have quite a bit of experience developing aftermarket ignition systems (CDI, and more specifically the ARC-II) for the 4G63 platform, and would probably be the best guy to ask about such a venture. Hell, maybe you've already done it and can tell me not to waste my time. The extent of my insight is pretty much summed up by saying it worked on some random dude's 4G63, so why not give it a try? Thanks again for your help, Bradrs.

Edit 1: Found the coils ---> Denso FTW?

Edit 2: Drew this up real quick. Can someone check my work?


Here's the diagram/thread I stole this from: click


bradrs
(Member)
09/20/14 02:07 PM
Re: COP Issues


On electrical circuits, current flows in loops. It will flow from 12V to ground through a load, but there is also a matching current going from ground to 12V through your voltage supply(or battery). This is a basic electrical theory. So when you picture the spark current, you need to draw the loop. I really should make drawings for these sometime to post them.

The dual ouput coils are very simple. Each end of the secondary is tied to one of the plug outputs. The voltage is generated in the coil secondary. This causes current to go out one plug wire, to the plug. It jumps the gap, goes to the head. Then it goes to the other plug, back through the gap, up the plug wire, and into the coil. That is your loop. And it doesn't really use vehicle grounds for anything on the coil secondary.

Now if you have a single output coil, it is wired differently internally. One end of the secondary goes to the plug, and the other end goes either to a ground post, or it is tied back to the 12V line.

Lets look at the case where it is tied to the ground first. When the coil fires, the current goes down the plug wire, to the plug, jumps the gap, goes to the head. From there, it has to get to that ground post. On the coils you showed a link to, it is a pretty straightforward ground path. But if it is tied into the vehicle ground elsewhere, the spark current has to get to that location through the vehicle grounds.

If the coil secondary is designed so that it is tied to 12V, then the path is even longer. It goes through the coil, plug wire, gap, to the head. Then it goes to your system ground, through your charging system/battery to the 12V/feed wire that feeds the coils.

If you have paint, anodizing, or any other coating that blocks these current paths, you can run into issues.

The real problem with using other coils, is getting the dwell right. That is why the CDI simplifies that. But if you are just trying to use the coil, then you want to pick one that is similar enough to the DSM so that it charges well enough, in the same time as the DSM. BUT, you don't want to charge much more than that, because the stock DSM ignitor limits you to about 6-7A. You can use workarounds on this, but most are complicated, or not cheap. And I don't think that anyone right now is adjusting dwell times with a factory based DSM ECM.

That was an Evo in that 25 page link right? I didn't read it all. But if it is an Evo, then it will wire differently from a DSM, since their PTU is basically built in to the coils. And I know some Evo guys have figured out how to adjust their dwell in their ECU. Aside from that, I don't know enough on the coils to say if it is a great idea or not. But most of these swaps have their issues.


iceman69510
(Turn Right Racing)
09/22/14 02:07 PM
Re: COP Issues

I tried a few years back to use the newer Mitsu coils to make a COP system (for the GVR4) that would eliminate the power transistor also. But I am not enough of an electrical expert to figure out how to use the stock ECU to power them correctly. I still hope to get back to that eventually.

G
(JDM Unit)
09/22/14 03:30 PM
Re: COP Issues

You need hayabusa pencil coils. Quit being cheap. Or these high output coils (smart/ dumb) >> click

Forget about the aem pencil coils in the link, those are only good to about 15 psi.


bradrs
(Member)
09/22/14 04:08 PM
Re: COP Issues

The last time I looked at the EyeAbuser pencil coils, they were a horrible match for the stock PTU.

The other coil is a strong coil, but it also wants a lot of current, and I'd be concerned about dwell time being too long for these, over time. I suspect they'd run great for a while if you have your wiring done right though.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/22/14 05:21 PM
Re: COP Issues

Quoting G:

You need hayabusa pencil coils. Quit being cheap. Or these high output coils (smart/ dumb) >> click

Forget about the aem pencil coils in the link, those are only good to about 15 psi.




Hayabusa pencil coils, eh? Could you draw up a wiring diagram and show me how to wire them in?

I've noticed you throwing around the term newb an awful lot lately. What's ironic, is in just the few years I've been here, I've never once read one of your posts and said to myself, "Damn, this guy knows his shit". Quite the contrary, actually. I read most of the stuff you post and just lol at the amount of incorrect or misinformation.

Maybe you should stick to crying about rust, peddling overpriced parts and posting when parts are NLA

Quoting bradrs:

The last time I looked at the EyeAbuser pencil coils, they were a horrible match for the stock PTU.

The other coil is a strong coil, but it also wants a lot of current, and I'd be concerned about dwell time being too long for these, over time. I suspect they'd run great for a while if you have your wiring done right though.




When you say wired right, would that differ from the diagram I drew above? I basically just adapted the Denso coil in place of how an intrepid coil would be wired into the system. Thanks for the help.


G
(JDM Unit)
09/22/14 07:59 PM
Re: COP Issues

I say newb because all your problems you post are newb related. As well as your buying decision on your current vr-4. Nothing wrong with making rookie mistakes. You are learning from your mistakes, I know they don't teach that over on tooners. I think I've only posted one error from my latest vr-4 since I've been here, and it was because I forgot which way a tensioner was supposed to face. That's only because the 5 or 6 4g63's before that I deleted the balance shaft.

If I remember right, I actually used cbr 1000rr coils. I think the busa's were to long. This was 2001'ish in my dsm, before I was even a member here. Though I think I did post the part numbers for the coils a while back. Some of the really old posts from way back don't come up anymore.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/22/14 08:50 PM
Re: COP Issues

No wiring diagram? No part numbers? That's what I thought...

You haven't posted a one error? What about the time you said the stock heat shield on our cars was made of aluminum? How about the time you said the FP mani doesn't ever cause heat issues? Or how about the time you claimed logs could be produced that show IAT temps lower than ambient by using aluminum IC piping? Or how about your theory on making more power with a 154* T-stat? Wait, wait, wait...lets not forget how you price items separately when you're only willing to sell them in pairs...then calling other members stupid for not being able to do math. Those are the one's I remember off the top of my head. Seems to me like the majority of your posts are errors. If all I did was spray paint the under dash and change the oil on my car, maybe I'd only have one error too

You've been around here since 04' and act like you haven't learned a thing from the knowledgeable group here. Maybe you are better suited for an extended membership over on T00ners?

I'm fine with posting up my mistakes here. I've got pages of shit I've fucked up. Hell, I pulled a motor out of 1813 because I forgot to tighten up one of the adjustable cam gears and misdiagnosed it. Currently, the front wheels on 1837 don't fit because of a big brake upgrade. Ooops

Here's the difference between you and I. I can talk about what I've done, and show others how to avoid the mistakes I've made by posting it up here. I've got thread after thread of failures and successes. What do you have?

Yet again...NOT. SHIT.

You talk like you're all knowing, but I haven't seen anything out of you to back it up? Like I said, stick crying about rust, peddling overpriced parts and posting when parts are NLA and you'll be right at home here. Start giving technical advice, and judging from your past you're just going to make yourself look silly per the usual. GTFO, G.


G
(JDM Unit)
09/22/14 09:03 PM
Re: COP Issues

I've forgotten more about 4g63's than you'll ever know. Wiring diagram? That dsm has been long gone. You think I still remember from 2001? Part #'s? Google. I never said aluminum, I said aluminum alloy. Look up the definition of alloy. Fp mani's don't cause heating problems, newbs do. Making more power with a lower temp stat is fact. How I price my parts fs is an error? Over priced parts? That's surprising to hear since you over-payed for your vr-4. Don't be mad because you got had. I don't need to post my successes or failures. I've been there done that. Blown up motors you name it. You need to because you're still learning and can't figure it out on your own. Plus it makes you feeeeel good.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/22/14 09:27 PM
Re: COP Issues

Quoting G:






Per the usual, I hear a lot of talk and don't see shit else coming out of you. Called it.

You forgot more than I'll ever know? That's hilarious, seeing as you thought you botched up a timing belt job...the epitome of newb mistakes in regard to the 4G63.

And who posted to bail you out? Yours truly. ---> click

What a joke. Don't worry, G. I'm here for you


G
(JDM Unit)
09/22/14 09:51 PM
Re: COP Issues

Like I said that was the only error I've ever posted and that's only because I forgot which way it went due to the fact I've never used balance shaft belts before that one which was my first. I've always deleted them for the prior 5 or 6 4g63's. I've lost count. See what I mean about forgetting I was ready to take it all apart and do it over, but as you get older you get lazy. Which you will learn in time. So I figured what the hell i'll ask peeps here to save me the time. Because i'm now old and lazy.

bradrs
(Member)
09/22/14 11:29 PM
Re: COP Issues

Quoting GSTwithPSI:


When you say wired right, would that differ from the diagram I drew above? I basically just adapted the Denso coil in place of how an intrepid coil would be wired into the system. Thanks for the help.




Well the big thing with the AEM coils is that they will suck down a lot of current. And because of the way they wire, you fire 2 in parallel, not series, so that will double the current of just 1. So you are looking at probable 2-4 times the current draw of the standard ignition.

In terms of the drawing you did above, I will make a guess since I am not 100% positive on the Honda coils. But normally, on the coils with built in ignitors like the Evo, LS coils, etc. you have a 12V, a ground, and then a small signal that is the trigger. Your diagram wires them like standard coils with no integrated ignitor, in series. You would have to wire them in parallel. 12V to each of the 4 12V feeds, ground to each ground. And then the signal for the 1,4 channel should be from between the ECU and ignitor, for that channel. Same with the 2,3. Then you can delete the ignitor.

Even then, I can't guarantee it works, because that is a small signal. And sometimes it needs a better ground, or a higher voltage swing. It has been several years since the last time I looked at the DSM ignitor signal. And I have a bad memory when it comes to stuff like that. So I don't want to tell you I know for sure, when I really can't recall.

The PTU inverts the signal into it, and also drives a much higher current. So basically, if you wire that part wrong you will get the timing way off.


bradrs
(Member)
09/22/14 11:43 PM
Re: COP Issues

Quoting G:


If I remember right, I actually used cbr 1000rr coils. I think the busa's were to long. This was 2001'ish in my dsm, before I was even a member here. Though I think I did post the part numbers for the coils a while back. Some of the really old posts from way back don't come up anymore.




Pretty much all of the bike coils are horrible for use on our cars. I do recall testing the CBR stuff, it wasn't a good match. It would work better than a defective stock coil, but it definitely wouldn't be as good as a good stock setup. They aren't designed to store the same amount of energy that our coils do.


slugsgomoo
(god hates stupid people)
09/23/14 12:27 AM
Re: COP Issues

Wouldn't that be due to the fact that they generally aren't run waste spark?

If run properly with a CDI it seems like bike coils would be fine, since their cycle time should be decent in that case. I know a gen 1 busa has a 12,500 limiter, and I have access to a set of coils on a shelf so it's been something i've contemplated for down the road myself.


bradrs
(Member)
09/23/14 01:18 AM
Re: COP Issues

No, it has to do with the high RPM the bikes are designed for, as well as the small form factor. They have very little energy storage available. So they charge quick, like filling a thimble. Where the standard DSM coils are more like a pint glass. It takes a little longer to charge them. On the bike coils, you charge them, then just wind up wasting energy that doesn't go to the spark plug, or worse overheats the PTU.

Running with a CDI is a very big functional change to the way coils work. They no longer have a dwell where they store energy. That is why you can run the crappy bike coils with a CDI, and it will still work. They aren't necessarily preferred for that, but they will work.

The stock bike ignitions run at a very low energy( something like 20-40mJ). They do it with a small gap, and lots of timing advance. They aren't really designed to handle the heat of running more power through them. I have heard from many bikes who have had them die, most commonly in racing. Personally, my CBR1000RR has over 40K miles, stock coils. And I have a few other bikes with similar mileage/performance. But I wouldn't try to put them onto a car or use them on a non stock application.


payne
(Newbie)
05/11/15 05:10 PM
Re: COP Issues

i'm working on my nephew's evo6 with the 4g63 motor
it looks to have the honda pencil coil conversion
is there any order to the wiring?
or is it just a case of the correct singal wiring colour to number 1+4 and 2+3
the car came to me non-running and partly dismantled
the cam timing had jumped and bent the inlet valves
the heads been sorted but i can't get it to run, its back firing through the inlet
it had all the wiring on the coil packs disconnected before i saw it hence why i'm asking about the order of the signal wiring
the cam timing has been checked and checked again to the mitsubishi manual
and the old school way of on the rock at tdc

the other question is can the cam sensor hall ring be refitted 180 deg out?



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