EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/20/14 09:16 PM
BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV) - Resolved w/ Dodge Mod

I've noticed a flutter from my current BoV when shifting at higher boost levels. I'm guessing that my new cams have lowered my vacuum at idle enough to render my current BoV obsolete. And considering the BoV itself appears to be stock....

So, what is a good option for me? And Evan, I know you are reading this. Should I get a new MBC while I'm at it?


Thanks to all.


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/20/14 09:34 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

If you have V3 full I would run it through link.

tektic
(Senior Member)
06/20/14 09:36 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

When I was looking I liked the Turbosmart. I have their MBC now

part number: TS-0203-1226

I still may get it.

At higher RPM and low throttle my bov flutters and makes the car buck... or is that my WG?


92_talon_awd
(Member +)
06/20/14 09:37 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

I had a Godzilla BOV on my last car, loved it. click

turbowop
(Hard Snarker)
06/20/14 10:02 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

Cams won't change how well a BOV works. Idle vacuum is not the same as going from boost to vacuum, regardless of cams used.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/20/14 10:07 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

Actually great to know. Thank you. Still, it would seem I'm in the market...

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/20/14 10:09 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

I do have the full version and capital idea, sport! I'll will start buying the bits I need as running it through link solves the tunI my problem as well.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
06/21/14 08:14 AM
Re: BoV suggestions

To this day I swear the 1G valve (modded) is the king of valves to use. It's fast moving, cheap, NOT annoying, and can be modded to hold 30psi.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/21/14 11:15 AM
Re: BoV suggestions

So dodge garage mod and be done with it?

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
06/21/14 11:24 AM
Re: BoV suggestions

That's my opinion. I noticed a little low throttle surge with mine. I set up my link to switch the lines on the BOV and it performs flawless. Opens fast under light load like stock, but I've hit 27psi and had it hold solid. Never had a 1g BOV fail or quit on me in over 10 years. They are cheap and plentiful and lets you put the money somewhere else. My biggest praise is that it's not obnoxious loud and is pretty quiet, but still noticeable.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/21/14 12:21 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

I suppose I should describe the issue, too. Car holds boost just fine up to 23psi. However, when I shift at higher boost (lower is ok), I get a fluttering sound like psht psth psht. no notice issues in drivability.

manikbastrd
(A Negro's Savior)
06/21/14 12:30 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

Get a new BOV (I like greddy) and then properly adjust it. Just my .02$

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/21/14 05:02 PM
Re: BoV suggestions

After watching some youtube videos and listening to the BOV sounds different cars with different problems were making, I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I'm experiencing flutter dump.

A new BOV will most certainly solve this problem. Will the dodge mod solve it as well?

C


coyotes
(Hipster VR4)
06/21/14 06:12 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Have you crushed it yet?

strokin4dr
(fighting them with a large needle)
06/21/14 11:04 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Dodge garage mod here. I love it. Holds everything I throw at it and works flawlessly. I was planning to connect it to a solenoid through ecmlink but its not ever needed.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/21/14 11:19 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting coyotes:

Have you crushed it yet?




No, but I suspect that doesn't fix my issue. If it was a spring tension problem, I would expect to hear flutter while spooling. I get to 23psi with no issue, and hold boost at around 21 through the RPM range. I'm only getting flutter when I clutch off of high boost.

I suppose it could be leaking and I wouldn't hear it?


coyotes
(Hipster VR4)
06/21/14 11:44 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

They hold more boost when crushed. It seems they start to leak over 17psi, but who knows if that is causing your flutter issue. I can't say much more out of not knowing enough on the topic.

EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/22/14 12:27 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

dodge mod fixes the issue properly. crushing it is old tech and not a consistent fix.

bmxr152
(Member)
06/22/14 12:55 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

They will also leak with a dirty sealing surface. I have taken mine off and cleaned it after a blt and no leak up to 35lbs with a dodge mod.

AnotherNewb
(flutterdumper)
06/23/14 02:54 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

<~ heh, flutter dump.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/23/14 10:46 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I met with EHMotorsports yesterday and we knocked out a dodge mod BoV in about 3 hours. The result of the mod was interesting. I actually noticed I was still getting a bit of flutter at higher boost levels. This behavior abruptly stopped when I blew my recirculation hose clean off the intake. Venting to atmosphere resulted in no flutter whatsoever. My BoV hose has a nasty bend in it, the result of using too-short of a connection. I'm guessing the tight bend the hose had to make to get into the intake pipe (right after the MAF, of course) was creating just enough back-pressure to flutter the valve. I'm going to fix this today with some new hose and report back. I'm guessing this issue goes with a new dump hose.

My stock BoV


You can see the stock valve was crushed.


I noticed the VR4 board was open on Evan's shop computer. I would say his suggestion of doing the Dodge Mod was excellent advice!


Cleaned, sand-blasted, rinsed and ready for modding. Evan had a stock BoV already sitting around, so we Dodge-modded that valve and I gave him my valve to mod later.




I decided to use a cap bolt so we wouldn't have to worry about filling or filing to get a hose to seal.



Evan has a lathe, which makes drilling out the cap bolt easy and precise. I've seen people with a vice and a hand drill and I have to imagine you break a few bits and a few bolts before getting it right.


He lathed the nipple on free-hand. Definitely something he's done before.


Now to drill-out and tap the valve.




Sealing off the stock intake pressure hole


Tapping the turbo outlet


The new valve painted and installed


Turbo outlet line installed


And of course, proof that it is, indeed, blowing off


prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
06/23/14 10:53 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Nice, yea I suppose a crappy vent hose would slow the pressure release. Good call. Good to hear it's sorted out too.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
06/23/14 11:09 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

You should ditch that crusty looking MBC and just use ECMlink instead.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
06/23/14 11:12 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

^agreed. Besides the amount of time it takes to get a good boost map set-up, links boost control is really nice. I'm using the stock BCS and it works great.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
06/23/14 11:35 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I had mine dialed in after about 15 min. Really not much to it.

EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/23/14 12:09 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

ya its a good idea. why not if the option is available. I will be reworking the wiring and cleaning the bay of my car soon. Taking the old Greddy controller out and running link boost control. one less thing that clutters up the engine bay and inside of my car.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
06/23/14 12:18 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

The thing I like the most is everything is consolidated with ECMlink. I can adjust boost at the same time with everything else, rather than have to screw with a MBC under the hood or adjust another controller somewhere. I know most guys just set the boost and leave it, so the point could be moot, but I like my laptop being the one stop shop for everything. In addition, you can't get the adjustability out of a MBC that you can with ECMlink. You can set the duty cycle on the solenoid to do whatever you want; from boost spikes to launch control. It's a really nice feature overall, and requires very little to get it up and working.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
06/23/14 12:33 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I friggin love the 26lb spike when my cyclone opens. Then it falls to keep the baby 16g from blowing up.

coyotes
(Hipster VR4)
06/23/14 12:37 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Once again some nicely done work by Evan. I just need to open a bar tab with him and drop my car off.

MDK87
(Newbie)
06/23/14 06:23 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I also prefer the 1G BOV over aftermarket stuff. I've used a crushed 1G BOV before which seemed to work well, but I'm having trouble trying to understand what this mod does? Is the idea that pressure at the compressor outlet will be slightly higher and therefore assist in keeping the valve seated?
As the passage in the housing cannot be enlarged, I wonder if you'd see a better result by tapping a new (larger) threaded port into the upper part of the housing (pic below).

I wasn't aware that ECMlink had an output available to switch a BOV. That's quite handy. Maybe you could use that to switch a solenoid and close the compressor feed on throttle lift-off while just running the usual boost/vac line to the diaphragm to allow easier opening of the valve..?

Just throwing ideas out there for evaluation.. Maybe someone has done it before lol



EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/23/14 06:42 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

The dodge mod adds a port to the lower portion of the BOV for quicker response when the TB is fully closed. so it just adds the port at the flange instead of where your dot is located. same vac port.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
06/23/14 07:20 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting MDK87:

I also prefer the 1G BOV over aftermarket stuff. I've used a crushed 1G BOV before which seemed to work well, but I'm having trouble trying to understand what this mod does? Is the idea that pressure at the compressor outlet will be slightly higher and therefore assist in keeping the valve seated?
As the passage in the housing cannot be enlarged, I wonder if you'd see a better result by tapping a new (larger) threaded port into the upper part of the housing (pic below).

I wasn't aware that ECMlink had an output available to switch a BOV. That's quite handy. Maybe you could use that to switch a solenoid and close the compressor feed on throttle lift-off while just running the usual boost/vac line to the diaphragm to allow easier opening of the valve..?

Just throwing ideas out there for evaluation.. Maybe someone has done it before lol






Here's an in depth explanation of how the Dodge mod works. click


EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/23/14 07:54 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting GSTwithPSI:

You should ditch that crusty looking MBC and just use ECMlink instead.




After buying a new motor, transmission, and other bits and pieces, I'm on toy probation until I buy my house No big deal, but with the car tuned and running great, no need to play with the MBC. I figure when I start back up on the car, I'll move to SD and fuel system stuff. Until then, little bits here and there.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/23/14 07:55 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting EHmotorsports:

ya its a good idea. why not if the option is available. I will be reworking the wiring and cleaning the bay of my car soon. Taking the old Greddy controller out and running link boost control. one less thing that clutters up the engine bay and inside of my car.




Great! get it dialed on your car, then we can talk about doing it with mine since you'll have the process down!


EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/23/14 10:04 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

UPDATE:

Flutter after the dodge mod. then a pop, followed by no flutter. As shown in the last photo on page 1, the recirculation hose had popped off. No surprise, I suppose, since it was a hack-job to begin with. A chopped piece of blue coolant host with the stock intake pipe rubber hose clamped on the end. The issue was that the hack-job hose created a nasty crimp in the already narrow stock bit of hose. That hose had an elbow shape and it was bent even more, restricting the flow a bit.

My theory at this point is that it was restricted enough to throttle the BoV at higher boost levels, leading to the flutter. When it blew itself off, it effectively removed the restriction, and ta-da, no flutter anymore.

I spent some time at the autoparts store today sourcing a single hose that had the length and curve I was looking for (cough). I got it back to my car (yay for owning a motorcycle on a hot day), cut it to the right length, and got it hooked up. It's looking much better, although I haven't had a chance to drive it around and validate it's actually solving the problem.

More to come...


EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/24/14 11:37 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Seems good so far. No real room to boost on the drive to work, but I did bounce over 20PSI at one point with no noticeable flutter. In fact, there was hardly any sound at all (finally).

The new hose is much wider than the old one



EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/24/14 06:35 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I just hammered it. spiked to 23psi, then settled to 21. No flutter, quiet blow-off, and fast fast fast

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
06/27/14 08:52 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

But now it stalls....

4thStroke
(Spence knows tools)
06/27/14 06:38 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Not all that glitters is gold. Although I was able to dial in and create a perfect boost curve with ECMLink, you could audibly hear the wastegate "chop" from the solenoid opening and closing through the open dump. I've seen this before and the cars pulled good. However, my experience was that the car did not seem to pull clean. I've talked to others who experienced the same. I tried different ways of trying to dampen the change in flow (or the pulse) in the vacuum lines, but I had no luck. I went back to my inline perrin unit. The perrin spikes less and holds better than my hallman, unexpectedly. The MBC doesn't give the curve I want, but the system works better.

EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/27/14 06:56 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

do you think running a stiffer WG spring would help with the chop you were experiencing? or a smaller WG?

4thStroke
(Spence knows tools)
06/27/14 08:21 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I'm limited by the 44mm flange with the FP turbine housing. It has the 12psi spring I believe. I've wondered if a different spring would help, that's another thing I have yet to try, but I can't find the logical sense that would tell me it would help.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
06/27/14 10:07 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting 4thStroke:

Not all that glitters is gold. Although I was able to dial in and create a perfect boost curve with ECMLink, you could audibly hear the wastegate "chop" from the solenoid opening and closing through the open dump. I've seen this before and the cars pulled good. However, my experience was that the car did not seem to pull clean. I've talked to others who experienced the same. I tried different ways of trying to dampen the change in flow (or the pulse) in the vacuum lines, but I had no luck. I went back to my inline perrin unit. The perrin spikes less and holds better than my hallman, unexpectedly. The MBC doesn't give the curve I want, but the system works better.




The solenoid functions just fine on a stock wastegate actuator, which leads me to believe the issue is with your wastegate, not ECMlink or the solenoid. I'm not sure how you had your system setup, but if you have it setup with the .25 restrictor pill like normal, you probably aren't getting the pressure required to give you proper control of your wastegate. Keep in mind, the stock wastegate doesn't have a spring to work against like your 44mm WG does. Ask anyone here running ECMlink boost control, and they'll probably tell you it performs flawlessly.

Why don't you give us some more details about how you had yours set up? Were you running a restrictor? How and where did you have the lines connected?


Boostdtalon
(Member +++)
06/27/14 10:09 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I have had good success with the Synapse BOV's and DV's. Ran them on my Talon, Evo, and Galant. They make a flange that bolts onto our stock dsm flange. I will also be going with there 50mm on my 3065 as it works in place of a 44mm WG.

Synapse Engineering


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/27/14 10:12 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

are you planning on running low boost with the 50mm?

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/27/14 10:26 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting prove_it:

But now it stalls....




Well it was doing exactly the same thing before


4thStroke
(Spence knows tools)
06/27/14 10:38 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting GSTwithPSI:

Quoting 4thStroke:

Not all that glitters is gold. Although I was able to dial in and create a perfect boost curve with ECMLink, you could audibly hear the wastegate "chop" from the solenoid opening and closing through the open dump. I've seen this before and the cars pulled good. However, my experience was that the car did not seem to pull clean. I've talked to others who experienced the same. I tried different ways of trying to dampen the change in flow (or the pulse) in the vacuum lines, but I had no luck. I went back to my inline perrin unit. The perrin spikes less and holds better than my hallman, unexpectedly. The MBC doesn't give the curve I want, but the system works better.




The solenoid functions just fine on a stock wastegate actuator, which leads me to believe the issue is with your wastegate, not ECMlink or the solenoid. I'm not sure how you had your system setup, but if you have it setup with the .25 restrictor pill like normal, you probably aren't getting the pressure required to give you proper control of your wastegate. Keep in mind, the stock wastegate doesn't have a spring to work against like your 44mm WG does. Ask anyone here running ECMlink boost control, and they'll probably tell you it performs flawlessly.

Why don't you give us some more details about how you had yours set up? Were you running a restrictor? How and where did you have the lines connected?




I had it set up exactly how ECMLink suggests with the recommended IR 3 port. No restrictor. I've heard this same chop in Hondas before. I've talked a good amount to Lucas and Aaron at English about it too. After they experienced the same thing, they also went back to a MBC. I posted on the ECMLink boards and got no response. Im willing to give it another try at higher boost levels, we'll see how it does, it just pains me having to rip on the car at high power levels for the sake of trying to dial in a method in still leery about. I wonder how many people experience this chop but don't notice it (maybe from recirculating the wastegate) or really aren't aware altogether.


brisvr4
(Oceania Distict Enforcer for the Galant VR4 Mafia)
06/28/14 04:16 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I was experiencing a bad chopping from what I thought was the wastegate for a while. I'm also running ecmlink with the ir solenoid through to a pte 46mm gate.
I tried everything that I could to get rid of it including going back to a mbc.
It seemed to pull fine at wastegate pressure (17psi) but once I got over 30psi or so it would start a rapid chop.
It only went away after I swapped in a brand new 90 amp alternator.
I never did pin it down to any one thing but it pulls perfectly since the swap.


Boostdtalon
(Member +++)
06/28/14 09:11 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting EHmotorsports:

are you planning on running low boost with the 50mm?




Yes at first I will be. Not sure how low as I'm far from that point. I've personally seen these run between 10-15 psi with no issues. Just have to know how to set them up.


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/28/14 10:08 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Reason I ask is I've found it more difficult to hold boost with larger WG's in higher boost applications the smaller gates are less responsive and boost controll seems to be smoother.

Boostdtalon
(Member +++)
06/28/14 11:59 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Evan, I'll talk with you more about this on FB.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
06/29/14 09:12 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Follow-up.

A few weeks in and no flutter + I'm holding boost through quick shifts. A+ mod/would recommend!



tektic
(Senior Member)
10/24/15 08:42 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I'm using a dodge garage modded Nov a d have a bit if a kink in the recirculation hose. At part throttle with anything over na vacuum it can start fluttering unless I'm in full boost or accelerating. It makes it very diffacult to keep a constant speed. Fluttering and bucks. Don't know what I can do to resolve this.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/24/15 10:22 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

wow, back from the dead! Old post.

Well your situation isn't my situation as I've got my BoV vented to atmosphere (SD conversion). I doubt the kink in your hose is an issue if it's behaving at high-boost, but fluttering at medium to low.

Is your BoV crushed? Most DSM stock BoV's that I've seen are. Considering how the Dodge-Mod BoV operates, this could certainly cause some issues. Also, did you confirm that all of your airflow points are clear and flowing properly? I know if your external boost reference port is tapped to far in, it will obstruct the airflow, which could potentially cause the issue you are describing. Finally, where is your external boost pressure line connected to? I've got mine tapped right into the turbo outlet for quick release.


G
(JDM Unit)
10/25/15 01:29 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I had the same problem with my HKS and i'm running SD as well. I had too many things hooked up to my vacuum block. I disconnected the bov and hooked up directly to my intake mani and problem solved. No part accel or decel flutter, bucking etc............

tektic
(Senior Member)
10/25/15 10:06 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

currently it is run directly to the vacuum port on the intake. My waste gate is connected to my turbo with a mbc in between.

The valve is not crushed. I'm fairly certain I performed the mod correctly. I will however take a look at the external port for signs of obstruction.

It does seem to be open during idle thought. I don't really know what that's telling me.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/25/15 11:15 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

There's your problem. The hose needs to be connected up somewhere between the BoV and the turbo outlet. The closer to the turbo outlet the better. Best option is to do what I did and drill a hole in your turbo outlet, tap it, and install a nipple to hook the hose to.

tektic
(Senior Member)
10/25/15 02:33 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Seriously? So where's the waste gate suppose to connect?

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/25/15 05:22 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

T'ed right off the new port. I actually used this mod as an excuse to move my wastegate line off the intake manifold.



tektic
(Senior Member)
10/25/15 10:26 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

So, just so I get this right in my head... The original port on the bov goes to the t connected to the nipple I taped into the compressor cover. And the tapped nipple in the bov stays open to air.

What signal boost or vacuum opens the valve? How does it know the throttle plate is closed if it can't see the pressure in the intake manifold?


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
10/26/15 12:23 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

His BOV is plumed to the port behind the throttle plate. The tapped nipple is vented to atmosphere.

If it is not that way any longer I will be having some questions for him tomorrow when I see the car.


tektic
(Senior Member)
10/26/15 07:13 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

That makes more sense to me, and it is how mine is currently set up.

I am seeing people suggest plumbing the new added port to either port 3 on the the throttle body or to the fpr and adjust for throttle position like nos control settings.

Anyone experimented with this?

Edit: what about a t after the boost controler. That way its slightly less pressure then it would see in the ic pipe?


EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/26/15 11:43 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting EHmotorsports:

His BOV is plumed to the port behind the throttle plate. The tapped nipple is vented to atmosphere.

If it is not that way any longer I will be having some questions for him tomorrow when I see the car.




The BoV stock vac line goes to the TB, but the new vac line goes to the new barb on the turbo outlet, right? I thought we did this because it's what gets you the fast-release?

I guess I should have looked. Either way, listen to Evan. He did the work


tektic
(Senior Member)
10/26/15 01:30 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

The way your describing makes it operate just as stock.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/26/15 02:18 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

From the dodge mod instructions:

"A quick tip because this has come up already: The upper part of the B.O.V. MUST AT ALL TIMES be connected to a vacuum/boost source behind the throttle body that has full engine vacuum when the engine is at idle. The new port you just added MUST be hooked to the turbo's outlet barb or somewhere in the intercooling tubing for the BOV to work correctly in fast release mode. Or you could just leave the port open to outside air but you loose the fast release feature which is fun for scaring the hell out of honda drivers ;-) "

Stock control = stock location
New barb = as close to the turbo outlet as you can get

Or out to atmosphere, but if you are getting flutter dump, I'd imagine you would be looking for the quick-release implementation.


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/11/15 03:55 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

With port conected to T before mbc all surging stuttering and noise has gone away. Boost creep is also gon and car now only boosts to what the mbc is set for.

Has anyone tried connecting a T after their mbc? I'd like to experiment but already broke one T and would rather have a spare on hand before I atempt this myself. I think it would hold a little more boost and hopefully still open pretty fast. Just speculation though.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/11/15 02:16 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Here's how I've got mine setup. It's a little hard to get everything into the same frame, so I've color-coded the vac lines.

Yellow = direct to turbo pipe port
Red = MBC line
Green = Wastegate line
Purple = Dodge Mod BoV lower (new) port
White = BoV upper (stock) port to intake manifold



This setup works great @ 23psi

I'm not sure what you mean by "after" the MBC. Are you talking about putting a T between the MBC and the wastegate actuator?


SleepinGVR4
(What are we going to do today Ferb?)
11/11/15 03:10 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Are you guys not using a mac pneumatic valve?

EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/11/15 04:38 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I've got a Hallman MBC. I'm guessing your question about mac valves is a question about whether or not we're using a solenoid for boost control? Not sure how that factors into a discussion about BoV's, but that could just be my own lack of experience.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/11/15 05:30 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I have mine set up the same way now. I was talking about moving the T as you decribe. I guess I can just turn the knob a few more times to get back to 23psi, but I feel like the bov is opening under boost now. I'm not using any sort of solenoid for control of this port. I was hoping I could use the post boost control signal to keep it closed a little longer. I'll buy another T and try it out in a day or two. Just wondered if anyone tried this before.

SleepinGVR4
(What are we going to do today Ferb?)
11/11/15 05:32 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

The dodge mod from Dejon came with a MAC pneumatic valve. Damn I've driven a GVR4 way to long.

tektic
(Senior Member)
11/11/15 06:29 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

How was that connected and when did it actuate?

SleepinGVR4
(What are we going to do today Ferb?)
11/11/15 07:19 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I've been running it for years now and I forget. I'll post a picture of it tomorrow when there is day light.

strokin4dr
(fighting them with a large needle)
11/11/15 09:06 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Having the boost source routed back to the new lower nipple is effectively defeating the purpose of modding the valve in the first place. It is essentially working exactly like the stock configuration without having the mentioned MAC valve in place.
I modded my stock valve the same way you did, but I just left the new nipple open to atmosphere. At cruising boost levels and part throttle, I do get some flutter sound, but at WOT (32 psi on a 20g) it holds rock solid and performs great.
I'm not worried about the partial throttle boost flutter. GN's and SyTy's have been boosting for years with no issue.

Quoting EfiniX:

Here's how I've got mine setup. It's a little hard to get everything into the same frame, so I've color-coded the vac lines.

Yellow = direct to turbo pipe port
Red = MBC line
Green = Wastegate line
Purple = Dodge Mod BoV lower (new) port
White = BoV upper (stock) port to intake manifold



This setup works great @ 23psi

I'm not sure what you mean by "after" the MBC. Are you talking about putting a T between the MBC and the wastegate actuator?




EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/12/15 12:06 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

As stated earlier, from the Dodge Garage instructions...


"A quick tip because this has come up already: The upper part of the B.O.V. MUST AT ALL TIMES be connected to a vacuum/boost source behind the throttle body that has full engine vacuum when the engine is at idle. The new port you just added MUST be hooked to the turbo's outlet barb or somewhere in the intercooling tubing for the BOV to work correctly in fast release mode. Or you could just leave the port open to outside air but you loose the fast release feature which is fun for scaring the hell out of honda drivers ;-) "

Stock control = stock location
New barb = as close to the turbo outlet as you can get


tektic
(Senior Member)
11/12/15 12:40 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Yes I'd like to see that set up. Hopefully I can copy it.

I had drivability issues. The noise was cool, I couldn't tollerate the stuttering and surging though.


strokin4dr
(fighting them with a large needle)
11/12/15 09:16 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

You're not getting it.
The way you have the new nipple connected is defeating the purpose of the mod.

If you were to have a solenoid inline that would close off the boost source to this new nipple (when positive pressure), then the bov would be able to hold more boost than stock. The reason for the solenoid would be for quick release operation. Yes... I know, yours is set up for quick release because it is basically a stock setup. You just moved the boost source from the bottom port to a new external nipple; nothing else. The solenoid would allow for same quick operation you have now, but would also allow it to hold high boost.
I boost leak tested my modded valve with an open boost reference to the new nipple and it leaks at 21 psi, just like when it was stock. BLT with new nipple to atmosphere (same thing you would see with a solenoid when there is positive pressure being made) and it holds 40 psi during the test. Test your setup. Guarantee your valve cracks open before 25 psi.

There is a reason Dejon included an inline valve with their modded setup if you wanted the best of both worlds.

Not trying to dis your setup, but I don't want to see misinformation spread on the board. If it works for you, great! But so would a stock bov the way it's set up now.



Quoting EfiniX:

As stated earlier, from the Dodge Garage instructions...


"A quick tip because this has come up already: The upper part of the B.O.V. MUST AT ALL TIMES be connected to a vacuum/boost source behind the throttle body that has full engine vacuum when the engine is at idle. The new port you just added MUST be hooked to the turbo's outlet barb or somewhere in the intercooling tubing for the BOV to work correctly in fast release mode. Or you could just leave the port open to outside air but you loose the fast release feature which is fun for scaring the hell out of honda drivers ;-) "

Stock control = stock location
New barb = as close to the turbo outlet as you can get




tektic
(Senior Member)
11/12/15 09:33 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I am getting it. It is undrivable with the mod and no solenoid. This is why I'm asking about alternative hookups.

So the solenoid is presure activated over atmosphere?


strokin4dr
(fighting them with a large needle)
11/12/15 09:56 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

I wasn't referring to you.

Yes, the solenoid could be used with an external pressure switch.
My plan was to use one of ecmlink's programable outputs to control it, but I ended up not doing it since it worked great with the nipple open to atmosphere. I'll try adding the solenoid when my new turbo shows up to compare the difference and report back.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/12/15 10:12 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

FWIW, this mod resolved my flutter dump/compressor surge as-is. If it's just like stock, I couldn't account for why tis mod fixed my problem. Not saying you're wrong, just relaying my experience.

strokin4dr
(fighting them with a large needle)
11/12/15 10:27 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Sounds like you had multiple issues going on perviously though. I'm glad it works for you, but I just didn't want others to think it's a "mod" when configured that way. I may have missed it but what is you boost pressure set at?

EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/12/15 12:11 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Thank you for that. You actually got me looking at some options for retaining a quick-release while also achieving the benefits of the Dodge Mod. I believe a small pressure regulator inline on the new port (lower diaphragm) will get me just that. I can set it around a stock boost level (15psi) so that when I go past what the stock spring was built to hold, I've still got less pressure on the bottom of the diaphragm...

EDIT

Of course, I'll get surge if I can't switch back to manifold pressure or atmosphere... So enter the Dejon BOV kit, which no longer is sold it would seem. No matter. Doing some CSI-style enhancing on some installations, I've located the part number. It's a MAC valve 1111A-111 and can be found in their catalog under "small 3-way valves" -> "1100-series". The valve comes with a signal pressure setting of 20psi. Looking into how to adjust that now...

And another EDIT...

...or do I? It seems like a simple pressure regulator on the new BoV port should do the trick. I was thinking I might get surge because the pressure would be locked into the lower diaphragm chamber, but in reality, the pressure regulator is open at rest, mean that I can limit pressure to a certain point, then release pressure when it drops back below the set limit.

I can test this easy enough. More to come...


strokin4dr
(fighting them with a large needle)
11/12/15 02:30 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

As long as the pressure is regulated to around stock boost levels, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/12/15 03:11 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Quoting strokin4dr:

I wasn't referring to you.

Yes, the solenoid could be used with an external pressure switch.
My plan was to use one of ecmlink's programable outputs to control it, but I ended up not doing it since it worked great with the nipple open to atmosphere. I'll try adding the solenoid when my new turbo shows up to compare the difference and report back.




I'm using link to control my BOV modded the same. Works perfect. Under 10psi and 3k it works as stock, anything over those parameters it holds just fine.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/13/15 10:54 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Here's my solution. We'll see how it works. Pressure set to around 15psi (too high?). Cost about $26 to build. I'll post my results here.

All parts from the Lowes close to where I work.

Kobalt mini air regulator (0-160psi) - $20.98
Item #: 221026 | Model #: SGY-AIR5JH

2x Brass hose barbs (3/16 in ID x 1/4 in MIP | 5mm x 8mm) - $3.99
Item #: 69301 | Model #: LFA96

And some pipe tape, of course. If you plan on doing this, you'll need an air compressor to set the pressure of the regulator.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/13/15 03:01 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

My initial observations:

Pulling the old feed from the turbo outlet barb off the lower (modded) BoV barb, I was met with an interesting surprise. The hose was split. Not much, but still... I cut the split part off, got the new regulator installed and off I went.

Normal driving felt fine. No real change. Maybe smoother? Certainly if I was leaking a bit of air under boost, it could have an impact on both spooling and my boost controller (which runs off the same source).

BoV operation for typical driving (maybe 5-15psi) was just fine. I only ran it hard once during my short drive because the turbo spooled up to 25psi (it's been set at 23), leading me to believe that the split hose might caused some issues that I'm just now seeing with my boost control. I'll look into that later when I can get a better data set and a log. As for the BoV, it's loud! This also leads me to believe that my BoV has not been staying completely shut under heavy boost and that my T3/T04 has been working a bit of overtime to get me to 23psi.

All very interesting...

more to come


89Patches
(I <3 AMS)
11/13/15 10:37 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Can someone summarize what's going on? Like you're doing all this shit to a BOV? For what?

So lost.


prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
11/14/15 08:35 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

The stock 1g diverter valve is a great valve. It has amazing response for it's age and is actually hard to beat. The problem is that the valve will open under boost around 18psi. There have been many mods to push it past that, but the price to pay is that the valve won't open fast at low load/boost and you'll get compressor surge. That's bad.

What hes doing is modding the valve to keep that fast opening response AND adding an actuator that will force the valve closed under high boost. It gives you the best of both worlds without having to spend 200 dollars on a loud valve that can get annoying.


Now in days, most people will swap to the EVO 9 metal divertor valve which can hold high boost and still open very fast. That requires a new flange though.


SleepinGVR4
(What are we going to do today Ferb?)
11/14/15 11:20 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)



Top side port - tee'd into a vacuum source on the top port on BOV.

Bottom side port - goes to the new port at the bottom of BOV flange.

Front port - goes to port on ic piping as close to the compressor cover as I could get.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/14/15 11:40 AM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

The thing that concerned me about the Mac valve was that the stated pilot pressure is 20-150 psi. Even if it's adjustable, I would think that you would have to crush your BoV to prevent the valve from opening under boost.

I mean I'm reading the valve diagram correctly, right?


EfiniX
(Member ++)
11/16/15 09:56 PM
Re: BoV suggestions (flutter dump w/ stock BOV)

Follow-up: Everything is working great. BoV functionality has been preserved without the risk of high-boost BoV blow-by.

Great discussion!



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