IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
06/27/13 11:20 AM
Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

sorry for the long story


engine background: good 4g63 engine, no balance shafts, arp studs, oem fiber gasket, tear drop oil port mod done to head, haven't had lifter tick with 1g lifters since start up (almost a year on it) no leaks, no oil burning, been a solid runner, short block was used and came from myles, i checked it over and as suspected since myles is such a stand up guy, everything was legit, head was used and was taken to a machine shop, cleaned, inspected, new seals, no issues found.

So a month ago I went out for a cruise with the 4g63 swapped wagon, nothing hardcore just driving around, take off from a stop light, shift into 2nd gear, hear this weird sound that's the speed of lifter tick but louder, think 'wtf just broke' and i pull into a parking lot, open the hood and listen, sounds weird, not like lifter tick, but i think 'maybe it is, i have been running revised lifters for so long, maybe i dont remember what it sounds like!' I give it a little rev and think 'man that sounds weird.'

So i shut it off and let it cool a little while, kick back and relax, check the oil level, start it back up after 15 minutes, sound seems to be gone. i decide to drive home and investigate further. Get home, pop the hood, check timing belt tension, check oil again and look for any shimmer, none found. start it back up and let it idle, sit there in a lawn chair for 10 minutes watching it idle and listening to it, bring revs up to 3k, hold them, let off, bring back up, feather it around, finally get it to do the sound again, keep fucking with the throttle; up, down, hold, up, down, a, b, a, b, select, start. Sound goes away (didnt actually do the a,b,a,b part, duh)

Decide it's valve train noise, go inside, buy revised lifters, figure since im in there i might as well replace the old stock units.

lifters arrive lighting fast since Eric Jones is the shit, pull apart my valve train and inspect, see no issues, no collapsed lifters, check anything i can check, install all the new stuff, start it up and wait for the new lifters to pump up. once pumped they sound great, sound like the old lifters did before the weird noise, i fuck with the revs again, get the sound to happen again, get pissed, shut it off, go inside, kill myself. well, except that last part.

come out the next day, start it up, sounds even better, mess with the rpms, sound doesnt happen, i start to question my brain and think that lifter noise has been the issue the whole time. drive the car to work, no issues. at work start searching for valve train noises not related to lifters, find stuff on this board about cracked rocker rollers, think 'oh my'. go home and remove VC again, slowly crank over engine by hand and inspect all the rocker rollers, find no red flags, put back together, go out for a drive, no noise...

drive it 3 hours to a car show in detroit, all is well, no noises. drive it 2.5 hours home, noise comes back half hour from home, i pull off, grab a tea, let it cool off, browse the web for a bit, thank some rednecks for stopping to see if im ok, have a short conversation with an old guy who's wife used to own a 75 wagon, start the car back up, sound is gone. drive softly the other 30 minutes home, park the car and dont drive it for 3 days.

Come back out, drive it for a week, swap in a KM132 transmission, drive it a bunch, every day in fact, until monday of this week, noise comes back.

searched the web throughout the week and finally found a video that sounds similar to it.

click

dont mind the commentary, just listen to the engine noise, my car doesnt have balance shafts (incase you're a youtube comment reader)


Thanks for reading and here's a recent picture of the booger bay:



Any input?


ade
(Carbon Fiber Phallus Group Buy Member)
06/27/13 11:47 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

someone posted this bellow the vid. Spun balance shaft bearing bud, had the same problem

IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
06/27/13 11:52 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

^ guess you missed my comment above:

Quote:

dont mind the commentary, just listen to the engine noise, my car doesnt have balance shafts (incase you're a youtube comment reader)




MellowVR4
(5" too short)
06/27/13 12:24 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

I have never heard a noise like that on these motors other then something to do with the timing belt area. Maybe the gernade is fucking up . Defently does not sound like a lifter tick, could be rockers related, thinking about this really hard as im here at work. Im kind of curiouse on what could be causing that noise. I doubt a broken spring would cause that? But you checked all that and found nothing correct? Im lost

IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
06/27/13 02:22 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

I'm going to remove the rockers and inspect them very closely next week, this thread is really making me suspect them:

click


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
06/27/13 03:11 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

That and measure the base circle of every cam lobe. Should be close to 1.180 I believe. I will check a good pair of cams and report back with a corrected/exact number tonight.

IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
06/27/13 03:32 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Thanks!

ade
(Carbon Fiber Phallus Group Buy Member)
06/27/13 05:00 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Quoting Alpha Male:

^ guess you missed my comment above:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
dont mind the commentary, just listen to the engine noise, my car doesnt have balance shafts (incase you're a youtube comment reader)








lol yah i def missed that, damnit yousquare.


Wizardawd
(Senior Member)
06/28/13 01:27 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

That video sounds like the timing belt is flapping. Try shining a light down the left side of the timing belt and look around the area of the tensioner and rev to around 2-4k. You should see some serious timing belt flap. If you do, chances are the hydraulic adjuster has failed. Check by trying to depress with your thumb, if you can it's bad.

Wiz


transparentdsm
(I have to say something dumb Member)
06/28/13 03:50 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Quoting EHmotorsports:

That and measure the base circle of every cam lobe. Should be close to 1.180 I believe. I will check a good pair of cams and report back with a corrected/exact number tonight.




this is what i was thinking, maybe out of round.


IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
06/28/13 08:52 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Quoting Wizardawd:

That video sounds like the timing belt is flapping. Try shining a light down the left side of the timing belt and look around the area of the tensioner and rev to around 2-4k. You should see some serious timing belt flap. If you do, chances are the hydraulic adjuster has failed. Check by trying to depress with your thumb, if you can it's bad.

Wiz




tension is all good, that was one of the first things i suspected as I had a 3kgt vr4 come into my shop once sounding like rod knock; it was the parts dinosaur tensioner i told him I did not want to install, luckily I had kept his OEM one on the shelf 'just in case' since it was perfectly fine. Well, that saved his ass!


Wizardawd
(Senior Member)
06/28/13 10:02 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Keep in mind there are 2 tensioners. One you set for initial tension, the other is hydraulic and attempts to maintain belt during during loading and unloading of the engine. When this hydraulic adjuster fails, it will cause excessive slack during the rev range even though the tension is set correctly when the engine is off.

Could also be the oil pump stub shaft since you are running a BS elim.

And in the video, the noise is far too quick to be a lifter or rocker.

Wiz


andrew4g63
(GVR4 have DSM stickers all over them, they are DSMs)
06/29/13 08:30 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Maybe get a stethoscope or a long screwdriver to listen and pinpoint where the noise is coming from.
I had a turbo that made a crazy noise like that at idle but I could def. see the t-belt tensioner causing same type noise.


theevozero
(Member +)
06/29/13 02:22 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Quoting Wizardawd:

Keep in mind there are 2 tensioners. One you set for initial tension, the other is hydraulic and attempts to maintain belt during during loading and unloading of the engine. When this hydraulic adjuster fails, it will cause excessive slack during the rev range even though the tension is set correctly when the engine is off.

Could also be the oil pump stub shaft since you are running a BS elim.

And in the video, the noise is far too quick to be a lifter or rocker.

Wiz




I agree, I seriously doubt its top end. The frequency of that sound is too fast to be cam,rocker,lifter related. Sounds like oil pump gears.


bcjjones
(Junior Member)
07/06/13 10:57 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

I know its been said above, but to me it sounds like a bad hydraulic tensioner. I had one sound like that right before it sounded like rod knock. Couldn't figure out the sound just like you can't, until I thought my motor was knocking.

I hoped it was just the tensioner, so I removed it and found it to be completely bad.

If you haven't, I'd suggest actually taking the time to get it off and double check. I got lucky, and mine went completely out at idle in my driveway.


mitsuturbo
(Banthony )
07/11/13 12:16 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Water pump going out and making noise? Tbelt bearing?
Could it be coming from the clutch/flywheel/bellhousing area? Doesn't really seem like it, but sounds sometimes travel and are perceived in odd places.


GreenGSX
(One Member)
07/15/13 11:10 AM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

The sound in the video sounds like the timing belt cover is rubbing the backside of the crank or water pump pulley.

mitsuturbo
(Banthony )
07/19/13 01:43 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

You figure out what's causing all that racket yet?

IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
07/19/13 09:51 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

its stopped doing it!

I was starting to suspect it was the downpipe being really close to the block at the bottom... I've still got my eye on it though and I'll be taking the timing cover off soon. Problem with a RWD set up is that the thermostat housing comes out of the front of the head, so pulling the timing cover means draining fluids, kind of annoying, i could trim the timing cover more i guess, but I like the closed off look.


IncorpoRatedX
(I'm an idiot...)
07/24/13 06:38 PM
Re: Not lifter tick! Valvetrain noise

Well gents, I stand before you a humble man. Upon removal of the timing cover I found the hydraulic tensioner to be indeed failed. Not completely collapsed but very little pressure was being offered up by it. A local had a perfect one from a low mileage engine and the wagon is back up and running rattle free!! Thanks for the help all.


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