Luke
(Senior Member)
02/13/07 10:42 PM
13" brake kit install with pictures

Puny stock 11" brake setup.



Note the routing of the stock brakeline setup, which we will follow with the new stainless steel brakeline.
Clean and PB blast the fittings before removal.



Remove the stock caliper and brakeline.
Then, separate out the brakeline bracket that bolts on to the strut. This bracket will be reused.





Remove the stock rotor





13" cobra rotor versus 11" stock rotor.
I redrilled the 13" rotor to 4-lug setup.



Put anti-seize on the rotor mating surface, and bolt on the bracket.
I used anti-seize on the bolts, and torqued to 55 lb.ft.
A slight amount of grinding on the bracket might be needed. ( Strangely, I didn't need to grind when installing the bracket on the passenger side knuckle, but grinding was needed on the driver side. )



Attach the rotor with the centering ring.
You now have a choice of removing the splash shield. I chose to keep it.
If you keep the splash shield, slightly bend it out of the way to avoid rubbing on the larger diameter rotor.



Clearance the caliper where it mounts to the bracket. Just try to bolt-on the caliper, and clearance as needed.
Also, the fins on the caliper is hitting my 17" wheels, so I had to unleash my die grinder on the offending fins.
You can say that I run a "ported" caliper setup





Finally, bolt the caliper onto the bracket.
I used loctite on it, and torqued to 65 lb.ft.



Use some hose and zip ties to secure the civic brake lines to the brakeline bracket, as such.
( Bonus point if you can line it up so that it says "Made in USA" as mine does )



Attach the brakeline to the caliper and to the car as such.
I was able to reuse the stock U-clip to the bracket on the inner fender with very slight grinding of the new brakeline fitting. ( However, on the passenger side fitting, I didn't need to do any grinding to fit, so YMMV )



Closer look at the brakeline setup. Basically, it mimics the stock routing.



All done:



Rausch
(Rock Star Status)
02/13/07 11:00 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

very nice. you should include a list of parts and numbers if you have them. as well as estimate of total cost. looks good!!!

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
02/13/07 11:01 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

total weight of setup?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
02/14/07 01:43 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

very nice!
is that with the brackets from Ron?


boostx
(On The Wrong Side. )
02/14/07 04:30 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

How does the pedal feel in compare to the stock one?

icurunnin
(GVR4 Pimpin)
02/14/07 06:18 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Nice work. x2 on cost and where to get the bracket from.

mr.mitsu
(Member +++)
02/14/07 07:35 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

this should be moved to how to

great write up...


boostedinaz
(Fatty McButterpants)
02/14/07 08:34 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Would love to get info on that bracket.

JNR
(5 star (English Professor) member Has extensive pop up picture book collection)
02/14/07 08:38 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Did you get the bracket from Ron, or make it yourself?

Looks good and nice to have choices for large brakes, rather than overpriced (imo) Baer and others' setups!

btw, I'm sure it's been discussed, but are the Cobra's lug pattern the same as DSM 5-bolt (for swapped setups)? And, what years brakes work?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
02/14/07 08:41 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Yes mustang brake patern is 5x4.50 which is 5x114.3

Luke
(Senior Member)
02/14/07 08:58 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Quote:

very nice!
is that with the brackets from Ron?




Yes, this bracket is from ron.

The cost of this setup varies lot depending on how well you source the parts.
I bought everything brand new, but the calipers.

My total cost was $415.

This includes paying big $$$ to a machine shop for redrilling the rotors. ( don't ask me why I have the balls to do engine internals work, but not to redrill rotors )

This does not include a large can of unopened performance synthetic brake fluid. ( don't use brake fluid that has been sitting out, because brake fluid absords moisture from the air. )
You will need quite a bit of brake fluid to get all the air out from those empty calipers.

I would say that with a more careful part selection (i.e. cheap DSM-er way ) and more of your working time, this cost can be brought down to about $300.


Luke
(Senior Member)
02/14/07 09:14 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Quote:

this should be moved to how to

great write up...




I second this, please move to how to section !!


curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
02/14/07 04:49 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

From my mustang days the cobra 5 lug and all wheel disk break set-up was around 1000 from the ford motorsport catalog then we discovered that the PBR brand calipers from the corvettes we're the same thing ecept didn't have corvette embossed. This brought the cost down 50%

A friend of mine has the bigger rotors from a ford contour svt for his Merkur and got them for dirt nothing from ford. I'll see if I can get the size from him and a price I know there factory crossdrilled and less than 100 for both. This might be a usable thing with a little home work.


Anyway like the port work and the mod looks way cool. Now get back there on the rears with the factory fronts.


Luke
(Senior Member)
02/14/07 08:28 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

>> I know there factory crossdrilled

FYI, if you're road-racing, do not cross drill the rotors.
It is not as strong as the non-drilled ones, and the cross-drilled ones will crack at where the holes are.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
02/14/07 11:50 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Great write up Luke. Now who wants the last set of brackets?

I have seen some drilled rotors develop small cracks but I haven't seen them fall apart. Real road racers that I know, change their pads and rotors too often anyways so they seldom fall apart on them. Oh, I don't know about those cheap ebay special cross drilled rotors.

Ron


kcpaz
(Señor Fabricator)
02/15/07 06:49 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Quote:

>> I know there factory crossdrilled

FYI, if you're road-racing, do not cross drill the rotors.
It is not as strong as the non-drilled ones, and the cross-drilled ones will crack at where the holes are.




it's okay to used crossdrilled rotors for road racing (people do it all the time), but you have to inspect them after each event and replace them when they show signs of cracking.


gtride
(Soy Decaf No-Foam Latte)
02/28/07 08:01 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Got dibs on the Last Brackets. I'll stop by your shop Ron tomorrow and pick them up if that's cool?

Luke
(Senior Member)
04/22/07 04:58 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Posting some updates here..

The piston size of the camaro calipers move the brake balance too much to the fronts.
So, I researched, and found that you can simply swap the camaro calipers with the corvette ones.

Corvette calipers have smaller pistons, and make the brake balance much closer to the stock setup.
In addition, the smaller pistons and stiffer corvette calipers give you much better pedal feel.

Here you go:








atc250r
(Senior Ricer)
04/22/07 07:41 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

I thought that might be the case but I've had no problems with the fronts locking up prematurely. What year 'Vette are they off of? I've got a hookup on 'Vette parts and could probably get a set for free.

John


Luke
(Senior Member)
04/22/07 07:56 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Any C5 vette. It is the 2001 model. Not sure what year it starts and ends though.

Even the Z06 one would work.
The only difference between non-Z06 and Z06 calipers is the color.

Here are the piston sizes:
Stock caliper piston size is 41.3 mm
Camaro/LS1 caliper's is 45mm
C5 corvette's is 38mm
All of them are dual piston calipers.


skivittlerjimb
(Senior Member)
04/23/07 10:02 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

What model year Civic brake lines are those?

-Jim B.
280/1000
1432/2000


bazeng
(work in progress)
04/23/07 11:29 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

i agree with the lock up of the fronts.
i am using this setup and if i break hard, the fronts will lock up causing the rear of the car to want to slide past the front.. (not good!!)

im trying to find something for the rears (larger rotors / calipers) with a provision for a cable handbrake...

there is one issue with this setup that i am not happy about,
its the fact that the rotor is not centred via the centre of the hub but rather the lugs..

if we could get a ring of some sort to seat the rotor perfectly in the centre of the hub, that would be great.. anybody up for machining some up?? RON??

apart from that, im my experience the brake feel is a little spongy, not as good as the stock feel, but im not sure if its caused by air in the lines.. i'll have to re-bleed it and see..

as for weight of the setup, the calipers are alloy and are much lighter than the stock vr4 brakes... BUT the rotor quickly evens things up... 17" rims minimum!! so say goodbye to the sleeper look...

overall, I am happy with the setup, will try to improve things with it soon.. I've already got a rear caliper in mind (FORD FALCON SINGLE POT REARS, WITH CABLE HANDBRAKE)..
cheap too!!



Luke
(Senior Member)
04/23/07 11:44 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

bazeng: If you look at the picture I posted, Ron does provide a centering ring to center the rotor on the hub. I would not drive a car with the rotor centered on the wheel studs.

The brake feels a little spongy, because the camaro calipers have larger pistons than the stock calipers.
The larger pistons on the caliper means that you need to move the brake pedal more to move the pad the same distance closer to the rotor.

If you ever figure out how to install the rear caliper upgrade you mentioned, please post a howto.


Luke
(Senior Member)
04/23/07 11:47 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

The stainless-steel braided brake lines are from 1992-1995 civic, front lines.
I bought mine from fastbrakes.com


bazeng
(work in progress)
04/24/07 12:14 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

RON!! I need those rings!!

I'll PM you...


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/28/07 08:56 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Luke its not so much that slotted or cross drilled rotors are bad
its the actual design. If the rotors are cast(made) with these options
they are just as strong as any normal rotor. Its when they drill out the holes
after the rotors are made that you can encounter cracking etc. Just look at any
race car they all have some kind of slotted or cross drilled rotor and they do not
fall apart.


steveGalant VR4.org Administrator
(Key Fob Guy)
05/04/07 10:45 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

The elusive "cast slotted/drilled rotors" theory again. I think they are all drilled, never cast with the holes already in them.

Rausch
(Rock Star Status)
05/04/07 03:18 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Steve is correct...from what i have read, and even in school, all the "drilled" rotors were just that, drilled. i have never come across any info stating that any rotors (including the high $$ carbon jobs) were cast with holes.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/05/07 06:11 AM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

Why are they called cross DRILLED rotors if they are cast with the holes in them?

656of1000
(You can't put a price on childhood memories)
05/05/07 06:33 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

A few questions...
1) What are the rotor thicknesses from the Cobra compared to the Camro or Vette (whichever car the calipers are from) rotors? If the Cobra rotors are thinner, I'd be concerned that when the pads wear low, the possibility may exist that the pistons will extend too far. It probably wont, but I know that rotors have specific discard specs per application. Is this something that was considered, or is this even relavent?

2) Do the pads sufficiently cover the with of the rotor surface? I.e. will the rotors have a large lip as they wear, or do the pads hang off the edge of the rotor?

3) Where are the hub spacers available, or were they made along with the caliper brackets?

I'm not trying to be devil's advocate, or a PITA, but rather trying to encourage discussion to further develop this setup as an extremely viable, cheap upgrade.


Luke
(Senior Member)
05/06/07 04:30 PM
Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

For completeness, here is the change of front-to-rear brake bias with this brake upgrade.
( Note: A positive number means that brake bias is shifted towards front )

  • stock caliper + 10.9" rotor +0%
  • 3kgt caliper + 12.35" rotor +16%
  • camaro caliper + 13" mustang cobra rotor +44%
  • corvette caliper + 13" mustang cobra rotor +2.7%

    The above numbers are obtained by multiplying the piston area increase and the rotor "effective diameter" increase.

    Brake piston diameters are as follow:

  • stock front calipers : 2 X 40.4 mm
  • corvette C5 calipers : 2 X 38 mm
  • camaro/firebird calipers : 2 X 45 mm
  • 3000GT calipers : 40.4 mm and 42.8 mm

  • Luke
    (Senior Member)
    05/12/07 08:10 PM
    Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

    1) Mustang cobra rotor thickness is 1.1". Camaro and Corvette rotor thickness is 1.26". Unfortunately that means the pistons will extend 0.16" further than GM intended when the pad wears low. However, I have ran my setup before with a set of very worn brake pads for about 2 months, and didn't have problems.
    I think, to be safe, if someone can come up with some shims that are about 0.08" thick, this issue can be fixed. People use shims all the time for brake pads for anti-squeal/rattle purpose.

    2) I do not know about this.. only time will tell, I guess..

    3) I ordered the hub-rotor spacers at the same time from Ron.



    Quote:

    A few questions...
    1) What are the rotor thicknesses from the Cobra compared to the Camro or Vette (whichever car the calipers are from) rotors? If the Cobra rotors are thinner, I'd be concerned that when the pads wear low, the possibility may exist that the pistons will extend too far. It probably wont, but I know that rotors have specific discard specs per application. Is this something that was considered, or is this even relavent?

    2) Do the pads sufficiently cover the with of the rotor surface? I.e. will the rotors have a large lip as they wear, or do the pads hang off the edge of the rotor?

    3) Where are the hub spacers available, or were they made along with the caliper brackets?

    I'm not trying to be devil's advocate, or a PITA, but rather trying to encourage discussion to further develop this setup as an extremely viable, cheap upgrade.




    **DONOTDELETE**
    (Unregistered)
    05/16/07 11:50 AM
    Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

    How much do you guys end up spending total after the brackets, calipers, rotors, spacers, etc?

    **DONOTDELETE**
    (Unregistered)
    05/22/07 11:29 AM
    Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

    1)The rotors are .10 thinner but you should not have to worry about the pistons extending too far.
    The discard specs are more for how many time you could resurface the rotors.

    2)The pad do cover pretty much the whole width of the rotor and 100% of the pad grab the rotor.

    3)I've included the hub spacers for the last 10 sets that were shipped.






    Quote:

    A few questions...
    1) What are the rotor thicknesses from the Cobra compared to the Camro or Vette (whichever car the calipers are from) rotors? If the Cobra rotors are thinner, I'd be concerned that when the pads wear low, the possibility may exist that the pistons will extend too far. It probably wont, but I know that rotors have specific discard specs per application. Is this something that was considered, or is this even relavent?

    2) Do the pads sufficiently cover the with of the rotor surface? I.e. will the rotors have a large lip as they wear, or do the pads hang off the edge of the rotor?

    3) Where are the hub spacers available, or were they made along with the caliper brackets?

    I'm not trying to be devil's advocate, or a PITA, but rather trying to encourage discussion to further develop this setup as an extremely viable, cheap upgrade.




    **DONOTDELETE**
    (Unregistered)
    05/26/07 12:35 AM
    Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

    Quote:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How much do you guys end up spending total after the brackets, calipers, rotors, spacers, etc?






    Total should be under $300.


    Rausch
    (Rock Star Status)
    06/18/07 02:09 AM
    Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

    since math and i don't sometimes get along, and i am unsure of the formula used, can someone do the math and figure out what percentage increase in bias would go to the rears with a set of stock fronts back there? my thought is that if the increase is similar to that of the camaro caliper, or somewhere close, we could then approximate what size rotor/caliper/pistons would be needed to balance the equasion for each of the choice brake upgrades.....anyone?

    Luke
    (Senior Member)
    07/03/07 11:52 PM
    Re: 13" brake kit install with pictures

    Front : camaro caliper and mustang cobra rotor conversion.
    Rear : stock front caliper and rotor

    F/r brake bias change is -51%.
    I.e. the brake bias will significantly shifts towards the rear of the car.



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