**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
08/24/03 09:22 AM
GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I'd like to tackle the job for rebuilding my gvr4 tranny myself but i had a few questions if anyone out there can help me. I had the transmission rebuilt by a friend, and it's starting to grind again. However the parts he put in were a mix of tre and evo parts. The questions im posing are these:

1. Are there part numbers on all the synchros and shift forks.

2. What specialty tools will i need.

Thanks
scott
GVR4#581


spoulson
(0 people like this)
08/24/03 10:03 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I'm about to do the same thing myself. I bought my parts from TRE. Jon recommended all the parts I bought, plus I got the double synchro 2nd.

I do know you will need a shop press, snap ring pliers, and god knows what else. I'll know when I start digging into it. You will definitely need the FSM to guide your rebuild as it will have all the endplay specs and assembly diagrams.


Romanova
( the coolest person to ever post in the past 2 hours)
08/24/03 10:19 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:
I'm about to do the same thing myself. I bought my parts from TRE. Jon recommended all the parts I bought, plus I got the double synchro 2nd.

How much did all the parts set you back?

atsiauto
(Senior Member)
08/24/03 10:56 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

yeah lets get a list going Id like to rebuild mine as well . and Im not scurred.

turboflanagan
(I would give myself something respectable.)
08/24/03 11:19 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:
You will definitely need the FSM to guide your rebuild as it will have all the endplay specs and assembly diagrams.

You need the overhaul manual. Rebuild info isn't in either body or mechanical FSM. I just printed the info from my backup cd manual.

The biggest pain for me was the fact that my local Mitsu place doesn't stock ANYTHING!!! And all the spacers and shims had to be ordered. Don't use soldier like the manual says! Use plastigage.


spoulson
(0 people like this)
08/24/03 01:07 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by Romanova:
How much did all the parts set you back?

About $600 with the double synchro 2nd, and probably about $350 without the upgrade. This includes synchro rings, 1/2 and 3/4 shift forks, hub springs, bearings, oil filter, magnet, pins, and some other parts I'm not fully educated on. I did not get spacers or shims. The upgraded 2nd includes a new hub, slider, double synchro and 2nd gear assembly, which is why it costs so much.

My 2nd gear is probably toast anyway, so I didn't see the waste in replacing it.


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
08/24/03 01:31 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

What perfect timing! I'm gonna rebuild mine soon too. I've started doing the research to decide on upgrades. I plan on taking mine out and putting a friends spare tranny in for now. Then I can take my time rebuilding mine. So far I want to do a new input shaft, double synchros for 1st thru 4th, 1/2 & 3/4 shift forks, HD shift rails (or possibly just the ends), 10% taller 5th gear and the HD trash magnet. I'm undecided on what to do about the center diff and the 4 spider gear upgrade. I'd like a Quaife, but they're pricey. Eventually I plan on building up a stroker and I want the tranny to be able to handle the torque.

I hope we can help each other on our respective rebuilds. It's always good to have a pool of information. A dedicated thread would be awesome (hint hint).

Dave Peter


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
08/24/03 01:47 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I dont think you can double synchro 1,2,3, and 4. There is only room for double synchros on 2 and 3 since they are on different hubs. TRE does 1,2, and 3 with a little machine work. I also have some part numbers that apply for this rebuild:

MD739795 1992 3-4 Rail
MD742728 1992 3rd Gear
MD742729 1992 4th Gear
MD742777 3-4 Synchro Keys
MD747646 1992 3-4 Hub/Sleeve/Synchro Kit
MD741558 1992 3-4 Fork
MD723439 1998 1-2 Fork
MD726235 Taper Bearing, Input Shaft Endcap Side
MD737652 Needle Bearing, Interm Shaft
MD745477 1998 1st Synchro
MD746435 1998 2nd Dual Synchros -- $66
MD748577 1998 2nd Gear
MD749414 1998 1-2 Hub/Sleeve
MD736638 1992 Taper Bearing, Interm Shaft Endcap Side
MD726326 1992 Taper Bearing, Interm Shaft Clutch side
MD738053 2G Trans Filter
MD742051 1992 Reverse Brake Synchro
MD732314 1992 Taper Bearing, Input Shaft Clutch Side
MD742775 1998 1-2 Synchro Keys
MD742445 1998 1-2 Synchro Springs
MD742441 1992 3-4 Synchro Springs
MD701722 Roll Pins

That list was posted a while bak on here (sorry I forgot who posted it). notice the various years of the parts. I have NOT checked the accuracy of the list or part numbers.


CKA
(Captain Kick Ass)
08/24/03 03:13 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Andre Cardadeiro (dre99gsx) has a rather informative tranny rebuild web sight with good outlined steps and pictures, check it out if you haven't already found it.

http://www.twingles.com/ideck/rebuild3/dretranny.htm


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
08/24/03 05:03 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Yeah, all I've done so far is reading, so I don't know if 1-4 double synchros are possible. TRE lists them as options on their website, but maybe not all in combination with one another. I could live with 1-3 double synchros.

Thanks for the parts list slvrblt. Are those all available through the dealer?

dp


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
08/24/03 05:19 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

They should be readily available, but that depends on the dealer.

spoulson
(0 people like this)
08/24/03 07:28 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

TRE is the only dealer I know of that will sell you just the parts for double synchro modifications. BM and Shepard will only these parts as part of a rebuild job.

I've talked with Jon about the synchros and he really believes there's no reason to overdo the double synchros by trying to put it on every gear. Are you shifting at 8500rpm in every gear? 2nd gear takes the most abuse in our trannies, so I got it for that one. It's also extremely cost prohibitive to get the additional double-synchro gears.

4-spider center diff is an excellent upgrade for durability. If you're going to make decent power, it'll be a tranny saver one day. If I can spare the cash, I'll be doing it, too. Send it out to TRE, Shepard, or BM for the upgrade, they all charge the same rate. I don't see a reason to go with an LSD center.


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
08/24/03 09:56 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Thanks for the input, Shawn.

Please keep it coming everyone.

dp


Arty
(Junior Member)
08/25/03 12:09 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

You'll need a 3/16 pin punch to remove the roll pins. Best to have a puller with 2mm thick hooks in case 5th gear is jammed on tight. If you want to remove all the taper bearing races you'll need a puller with thin hooks facing outwards that can fit between the bottom of the bearing race and the gearbox casing.  -
Long socket to use as a drift, can't remember the size 36mm I think, to remove the drive shaft seal.

John.


spoulson
(0 people like this)
08/25/03 09:10 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Could you use a press for gear and bearing removal, too? I don't think Andre's VFAQ showed any gear pullers for his job.

Arty
(Junior Member)
08/25/03 06:30 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

You do need a press and the appropriate sized bearing separators to disassemble the gears and bearings from the shafts.
Dre's VFAQ is the most useful resource I've found.
You need the puller if the 5th gear is stuck on the shaft, as mine was.
The 5th gear pictured in the VFAQ is installed upside down though.When I used screwdrivers to try and lever off the 5th gear, I chipped the corners of its teeth. Then I realised that the 2.5mm groove around the top of the gear is there to attach a puller.

John.


turboflanagan
(I would give myself something respectable.)
08/25/03 11:31 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by Arty:
You do need a press and the appropriate sized bearing separators to disassemble the gears and bearings from the shafts.
Dre's VFAQ is the most useful resource I've found.
You need the puller if the 5th gear is stuck on the shaft, as mine was.
The 5th gear pictured in the VFAQ is installed upside down though.When I used screwdrivers to try and lever off the 5th gear, I chipped the corners of its teeth. Then I realised that the 2.5mm groove around the top of the gear is there to attach a puller.

John.

Yep, yep, and yep. Chipped my teeth too. Don't want to think about how long I cussed that oops. Didn't have a puller that would fit in that groove.

iceman69510
(Turn Right Racing)
08/27/03 11:56 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I did mine with some help from TRE and some usage of the dealers tools, and it was one of the most complicated jobs I have ever done. I hope not to have to do it again. I replaced every synchro and bearing plus two gears doing mine. Also two shift forks.

If you have someone with experience to help you, or have done another tranny before, that helps.


ken inn
(BJ Titsengolf lifer)
08/27/03 02:05 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by turboflanagan:
quote:
Originally posted by Arty:
You do need a press and the appropriate sized bearing separators to disassemble the gears and bearings from the shafts.
Dre's VFAQ is the most useful resource I've found.
You need the puller if the 5th gear is stuck on the shaft, as mine was.
The 5th gear pictured in the VFAQ is installed upside down though.When I used screwdrivers to try and lever off the 5th gear, I chipped the corners of its teeth. Then I realised that the 2.5mm groove around the top of the gear is there to attach a puller.

John.

Yep, yep, and yep. Chipped my teeth too. Don't want to think about how long I cussed that oops. Didn't have a puller that would fit in that groove.
blondes HATE vibrators. it chips their teeth.

turboflanagan
(I would give myself something respectable.)
08/27/03 04:51 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

[Mad] [Razz]

spoulson
(0 people like this)
09/03/03 02:51 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I have access to a 92 Talon FSM. Will the tranny overhaul section apply to a 91 GVR4?

iceman69510
(Turn Right Racing)
09/03/03 04:22 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

If it has a tranny section covering the W5M33, but I think the '92 manuals don't have engine and trans info in them. They were in separate books for 92-94 I believe.

Maybe that's Mitsu only, and the Chrysler books had it. Just check for it. (Still not very detailed in my opinion.)


turboflanagan
(I would give myself something respectable.)
09/04/03 09:48 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I found a '93 Talon manual at work and it has the overhaul stuff in it, but I couldn't find the '92 book. Check section 21-63, that's where W5M33 starts in the '93 book.

spoulson
(0 people like this)
09/04/03 01:13 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I'll be checking out that FSM this week. He says he has all the books.

Here's another couple of links I picked up:
Limited set of pages from Mitsu training manual, rebuild W5M33
Someone's GS-T rebuild, FWD, but hey it gives a lot of close-up views of parts

I have a lead on the complete scanned PDF of the Mitsu training manual on the W5M33. I'll post it when I have it.

As far as tools required, I've been recommended to use:
- a 12t press, such as this one. (Harbor Freight = free shipping)
- snap ring pliers. The ones on Harbor Freight won't work, so someone recommended the tool from Sears or Snap-On.
- Large bearing separator
- FSM. As far as I can tell, as long as it has a section for W5M33 overhaul, that's what you need. 92+ had separate books for overhaul, fyi.

I'll post more when I get further into this. I'll be sure to take a bunch of pictures during the rebuild.


spoulson
(0 people like this)
09/04/03 08:27 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Mitsu W5M33 Rebuild PDF

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
09/04/03 10:07 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Dude! You RULE! Please keep us all posted on your progress. My rebuild will have to wait at least a few months. But I'm stoked that all these resources are here for when I do tackle it. Thanks for sharing all this stuff.

dp


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
09/04/03 11:56 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Shawn can I link that on my page?

Tondar
(Member)
09/29/03 08:00 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Have any of you made any progress with your transmissions? I'm getting ready to start this and would like advice

Thanx


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
09/29/03 10:30 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Yes, mine's in the basement on the bench in pieces. Advice, huh? Print the PDF instructions, even though it's like 44 pages. Make sure you have a bearing separator, and probably a press. I have two nice pullers that I may be able to make work instead of a press. Time will tell as I'm waiting on the separator from an eBay seller. An impact will be a great benefit. Drain as much oil out as you can before you start cracking the bolts loose to take the case apart. If you deal with Jon at TRE he'll tell you to take the tranny apart before you order parts. You'll need snap ring pliers. That's all I can think of at the moment. Let me know if you have specific questions and I'll try to answere them.

dp


Tondar
(Member)
09/30/03 08:04 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Hey Shawn,

You don't by chance have a similar manual for the transfer case do you?

Thanx


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/08/03 04:11 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Check this out: I found another spot where the shift linkage develops play. It's in the lever that moves the control shaft in and out of the case. There are two metal (maybe aluminum) bushings that are pressed into the lever that had some play, and a nylon (plastic) block that has developed some slop over the last 11 years. I just got done machining some brass replacement bushings that fit tighter. No play at all now. I won't know how well it worked 'til I get the tranny rebuilt and in the car. Here's a photo of the lever and the old and new parts:

 -

dp


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/08/03 05:06 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Dave, that's pretty sweet. I just replaced those bushings with new factory ones, and it's still not perfect. Seriously, make a bunch of those bushings, setup a simple ordering web page that takes paypal, and you're good to go. The shifter assembly could use 'em too.

I'll order the first set!


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/08/03 07:32 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by Tondar:
You don't by chance have a similar manual for the transfer case do you?

The FSM also has a rebuild section for the transfer case, too. But, I don't have it electronically.

You guys could order the $35 Backup manual CD from various vendors. That is a copy of the FSM, right?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/08/03 11:36 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

While you're in there, pop the $ for the evo shift forks..they make the shifts feel way better. much more solid because you don't have the aluminum flexing..I'd go with the RRE forks if you have the extra cash. I rebuilt mine with new aluminum forks, only to have the tranny out 3 weeks later replacing them again with steel..bent one on the first race after the rebuild, and it was brand new.
dave


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/09/03 07:39 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I've heard mixed reviews about the EVO forks. Yeah, they're stronger but not necessarily perfect. Some have complained of the pads on the end of the forks wearing out too fast, or just falling off. I went with OEM aluminum.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/09/03 09:32 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

TRE's EVO forks now have bronze wear pads that are held on by machine screws and silver solder. Jon seems to think they've worked all the kinks out, and highly recommended them. I think I'm going to try them.

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/09/03 09:45 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Yeah, the EVO shift forks are just one of the upgrades that will be going in. Jon's got my center diff right now and will be converting it to a 4-spider gear unit. When he sends it back, it will be accompanied by all the other goodies.

Howard: I'll kick it around. It's pretty time intensive.

dp


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/09/03 01:18 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
Yeah, the EVO shift forks are just one of the upgrades that will be going in. Jon's got my center diff right now and will be converting it to a 4-spider gear unit. When he sends it back, it will be acconpanied by all the other goodies.
dp

Yesss! FedEx just picked up my transmission, and its on its way to TRE. I'm getting the 4-spider diff too, the EVO forks, heavy duty synchros on 1,3,and 4, and the dual-sychro 2nd gear (of course). If there's any money left in the bank, I may get the higher 5th gear ratio. Anyone have any feedback on the 10% vs 25% change?

spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/22/03 07:34 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I finally got a chance to crack open the transmission last night:



Removing viscous coupling unit


View of ball in the center diff's rear shaft. Don't lose this! (I used compressed air to pop it out, then it fell inside the case, but I found it later. )


View of transmission with 'trans case adapter' removed.


Transmission case removed. View of input and intermediate shafts and front diff.


Close up of front diff.


Close up of center diff.


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/22/03 07:36 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Gear selection assembly.


Close up of input and intermediate shafts. 1st/2nd gear on the left, 3rd/4th on the right.




That's all for now. Next is to start doing the RnR on the gears and synchros.

Btw, does anyone have a suggestion to give the trans case pieces a good cleaning to look like new? I scrubbed and scrubbed and what you see is the best I can do. That's caked on old coolant/oil mix.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/22/03 08:19 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Damn keep the pictures coming! Looks great so far. As for cleaning, maybe send it out when fully disassembled? I dunno...

spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/22/03 08:23 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Hmm.. Once clean, I wonder if powder coating is a good idea. Any recommendations?

But yeah, I can get the best cleaning done with all the case pieces bare. A friend has a sandblaster but I'm not sure that's a great idea.


HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
10/22/03 08:27 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Hot tank.

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/22/03 08:38 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Yeah, I dunno about the sandblaster thing. Sure would suck to have any sand left in the case after it's all back together. I think I'll just scrub the case pieces with Simple Green and water and leave it at that. As for powdercoating, anything you do is gonna get scratched up when you go to put the tranny back in. I'm just gonna leave mine.

dp


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/22/03 04:47 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

The trans is disassembled and hot tanked the same day. - Taken from team rip
Also I would put in md738053 it is a rainbow shaped screen. They have a spot to put it in our cars but did not put them in till 95. And mb001293 it's the drain plug for the transfer case which is the same as the trans only magnetic. md000312 is the gasket for the plug it is a 18mm plug I think mitsu wanted alot for these gaskets.


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/22/03 05:06 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Tell me more about hot tanking. Where would I go for that? What exactly is the process?

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/22/03 07:55 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

This isn't in regard to hot tanking, but keep in mind the case is aluminum and some solvents will damage it.

dp


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/22/03 09:03 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Tonight I started pulling gears off the shafts. I find that my Harbor Freight bearing separator really sucks. I think it's made of recycled mufflers.

Here's the progress and the damage:

This is a hell of a magnetic field around the trash magnet! :eek:


1st/2nd gearset removed from intermediate shaft.


This is your synchro. This is your synchro on drugs. And yes, 2nd gear grinded a lot. Notice the decorative brass shard on the gear.


This is the Harbor Freight 12t press.


Here's the problem:


The bearing separator has a pretty dull clamping edge so I sharpened it with my dremel. The metal was very soft, which is what causes the problem. The bearing busts off the rollers, leaving what you see here, and taking some chips off with it (at about 50mph). So I tried clamping the bearing separator around it and tried again, but this only continued to chip the edges.

So I think I need a better method or tool. What can someone suggest?


Romanova
( the coolest person to ever post in the past 2 hours)
10/22/03 09:24 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

With the hot tanks we have at my work, you simply place the parts in it and set the timer. Then it sprays it with extremly hot water. You can add cleaners if you want. Usually if you run it with water for a few hours, it comes out pretty good.

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/23/03 07:35 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to put the separator on the back side of the bearing. Will it not fit? I'm still waiting on my separator to be delivered so I can begin pressing the gears/bearings off the shafts. I don't think my parts from TRE will be here in less than another week, so I'm not really in a big hurry.

dp


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/23/03 09:37 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to put the separator on the back side of the bearing. Will it not fit? I'm still waiting on my separator to be delivered so I can begin pressing the gears/bearings off the shafts. I don't think my parts from TRE will be here in less than another week, so I'm not really in a big hurry.

That's what I did and it took out the roller cage that you see on the right and all the rollers fall out. I've been suggested to use a cut-off tool to cut about 80% through the inner race and either chisel or hammer it off.

These are on the ends of the shaft where you can't put the separator under a gear. You have zero clearance.


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/23/03 01:29 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

If that's the case, then a separator isn't gonna be much better than the puller I have. [Roll Eyes]

Can you get the separator on the small end lip or is too much of it broken off from the rollers?

Keep us posted on your progress, Shawn.

dp


Luke
(Senior Member)
10/24/03 03:25 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by keydiver:
Yesss! FedEx just picked up my transmission, and its on its way to TRE. I'm getting the 4-spider diff too, the EVO forks, heavy duty synchros on 1,3,and 4, and the dual-sychro 2nd gear (of course). If there's any money left in the bank, I may get the higher 5th gear ratio. Anyone have any feedback on the 10% vs 25% change?

I got a TRE rebuilt tranny with 10% taller 5th.
More than likely you will also have to change the end cover to the updated version to get it to work.

However, I love the 10% taller gear. Crusing on highway at 75mph is a comfortable 3K rpm.
I wouldn't get the 25% taller gear, as the gear is straight cut. Therefore, it is going to whine.

I also got double synchro 1st and 2nd. steel shift rail, evo shift forks, new synchros in all gears. It shifts very nice indeed, especially after about 500-1K miles break-in period.


iceman69510
(Turn Right Racing)
10/24/03 05:26 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:
quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to put the separator on the back side of the bearing. Will it not fit? I'm still waiting on my separator to be delivered so I can begin pressing the gears/bearings off the shafts. I don't think my parts from TRE will be here in less than another week, so I'm not really in a big hurry.

That's what I did and it took out the roller cage that you see on the right and all the rollers fall out. I've been suggested to use a cut-off tool to cut about 80% through the inner race and either chisel or hammer it off.

These are on the ends of the shaft where you can't put the separator under a gear. You have zero clearance.

Two things for you:

Jon at TRE actually uses an impact hammer chisel to push some of the bearings off ( and also to split the cages and roller off some of them first), second, the bearing separator is supposed to go into the zero clearance between the gear and the bearing as you tighten it down. It is a wedge to drive the two parts apart. At least that is how I believe it is supposed to work. I used a dealer tool (borrowed) for mine.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/24/03 08:36 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Hey you house looks like mine with tranny parts all over the place. Check you shift shaft seal to see if it shows signs of leakage. Replace it now if it does you have to pull the trans apart to get to it again. I know because mine it apart again because of that. Also while you in there replace all the seal some of them i.e. the input shaft seal is only accessable from inside the tranny. When you go to put it back together tighten down the case to press in the diff and when you go to tighten the pain in the ass 36mm nuts use you foot to hold it so you can torque it without put it on it's side and any left over trans fluid get on the rtv and it leaks [Roll Eyes] don't ask how I know. And there is a groove in the input shaft where the one ball is behind the viscous coupling if you put two in it will hold the shaft to the visous coupling much tighter and it makes it feel more like a welded center diff. The nice thing is if you don't like it you can put the side cover off and take it out. Also when you put on the 5/reverse syncro's make sure you have the flat spots in it on the side with the wave washer or else the will lock the trans because there inside diameter is differn't. When you look on the vfaq the one on top doesn't have the flat spots don't ask how I know this either [Roll Eyes] .

spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/24/03 09:39 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by iceman69510:
second, the bearing separator is supposed to go into the zero clearance between the gear and the bearing as you tighten it down. It is a wedge to drive the two parts apart. At least that is how I believe it is supposed to work. I used a dealer tool (borrowed) for mine.

See, the problem is the cheap-o bearing separator I got from Harbor Freight is as soft as butter. Instead of getting underneath, it simply dents. I sharpen it with a dremel, same result when I try again. What I need is something made out of steel, not butter.

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/25/03 09:14 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

What has everyone's experience been in dealing with Jon Ripple at TRE? My crap's taking longer than he said and I haven't heard fom him. He's machining the center diff and a new input shaft for double synchro 1st and 2nd, so it's not a complete tranny, just parts. Anyone?

dp


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/25/03 02:21 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I managed to get past the stuck roller bearing. Using a 3" pneumatic cut-off wheel I was able to make grooves on both sides so that the crappy bearing separator could grip it and they both finally came off.

Grooves


I hate you!


New parts from TRE


All for now.


Luke
(Senior Member)
10/25/03 05:29 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4:
What has everyone's experience been in dealing with Jon Ripple at TRE? My crap's taking longer than he said and I haven't heard fom him. He's machining the center diff and a new input shaft for double synchro 1st and 2nd, so it's not a complete tranny, just parts. Anyone?

dp

I got my tranny rebuilt actually faster than his original quote.
He pretty much did the work for me in two days.
One day to take apart and let me know what went wrong.
Then, one more day to rebuild according to my choice of mods.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/25/03 09:26 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Mine took at very very very long time. He quoted me 2 weeks. I got it back 3.5 months later AND he messed up the output shaft. Plus I had to keep calling and calling him to get it done. And he didn't include my ported manifold. That being said a new t-case fixed the output shaft prob (John did reemburse me for it and the manifold) and the tranny is great. I will *never* send it back to him though.

curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
10/25/03 10:27 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

the best way to pull the bearing that Ive found is a 2 x 12 pine board on the floor. Just hold the propane torch to the bearings to heat them up then start slamming the f&*( out of the shaft on the end. the wood will keep the threads from getting damaged. Just wear gloves the gears are hell on your hands. When it gets close to the end just hold a 1/2 inch deep well socket against the end and finish it by tapping it off.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/30/03 02:31 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Would a 10ton bearing press do the job too?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/30/03 03:12 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:
I managed to get past the stuck roller bearing. Using a 3" pneumatic cut-off wheel I was able to make grooves on both sides so that the crappy bearing separator could grip it and they both finally came off.

Grooves
 -

I hate you!
 -

New parts from TRE
 -

All for now.



**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/30/03 03:33 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Sorry, I clicked to early on that last post.

I rebuild these all the time and for that input shaft bearing I use an air hammer with a thin blunt bit placing it between the gear teeth, at the same angle as the gear teeth and push it off catching the edge of the bearing until the bearing spreader can fit. Takes about 10 seconds and your done.

I use a long jawed puller along with a bearing spreader and a step plate set so you don't damage anything for dissasembly, no press needed...

I use a Walmart hot plate to install all bearings. They just drop on with a little heat but don't cook them just warm them, no press needed...


spoulson
(0 people like this)
10/30/03 01:21 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by Mariner31:
Would a 10ton bearing press do the job too?

Probably, but more importantly you need the space to fit the shaft.

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
10/31/03 10:02 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

All but two of my parts arrived today from TRE: an intermediate shaft bearing and the 1st/2nd gear shift rail. These two items were overlooked and will be shipped out Monday. Here's the list:

Four spider center diff, double synchro 1st and 2nd gears, input shaft, steel shift rails, shift forks w/bronze pads, 3rd/4th gear synchro ring, neodymium trash magnet, oil filter, magnetic drain plug, all needle bearings, all roller bearings, roll pins, snap rings, synchro springs, shaft end nuts, all seals, 10% taller 5th gear, and the nylon block for the shift linkage (which I don't need: I machined a brass one).

After $1,886.90, this thing better shift like buttah and NEVER need another rebuild. At least as long as I own it.

Here's a photo:

 -


spoulson
(0 people like this)
11/07/03 11:06 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I spent some more time tonight on the thing. I got the shafts completely rebuilt and ready for assembly.

Now I'm stuck on two things. Maybe someone has some tips to help me along.

I'm removing the old seals: front diff left/right, input shaft, and rear output shaft. the rear output shaft just fell apart and that's a problem because it's a U-shaped seal that wedges into position in the bell housing. I scraped and scraped, and there's still rubber stuck in the groove that won't come out. Tried a torch too, but that made no immediate progress and I was afraid it might just make things worse.

Also, I can't get the input/intermediate shaft bearing races out of the bell housing side of the case. I also tried torching around the outside of the race and pryed with a screwdriver on the intermediate one, but no budge. The input shaft is harder, because there's no place to pry at. Should I just bake the whole thing and hope they'll pop out? The races on the other side weren't much of a problem. And before you say, I can't reuse the races because seems that I'm using slightly different bearing sizes that aren't compatible with old races.

btw, I found this truck parts place that'll do hot tanking, solvent bath, and whatever else. They have a machine shop in the back with all the stuff. Tomorrow I'm going to see what they can do for my ugly trans case.


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
11/11/03 05:45 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Shawn-

I'm not sure what you mean on the output shaft seal. Mine just presses in from outside the case and it's one piece. Maybe you could elaborate or take a photo of what you're talking about.

As for the input shaft race, I just got mine out last night. It was tough. I have two pretty nice Proto gear pullers and I used the legs from the bigger one to get behind the race and "lift" it out. I can send you the pieces of the puller I used if you need them, or at least post photos of what I'm talking about. It's been a while since your post (sorry, I must've missed it) so you've probably got everything worked out by now.

What I lack now is an input shaft C-clip, an output shaft seal, a 1/2 upgraded shift rail (from Jon at TRE, who won't return my e-mails!), and some spacers. After I get all that, I should be golden!


Edit: I'd also limit the amount of heat you put on that aluminum case. Just my $ .02.

dp


spoulson
(0 people like this)
11/11/03 09:55 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Ok, so you press in the output shaft seal. Now when you want to remove a 12 y/o seal, how do you 'un-press' it? It just falls apart and rubber is now wedged into the O ridge where the seal goes. You can't press a new one in because of the rubber that's stuck in there. Got me now?

As for the races, I'm going to give the case pieces to a local guy who I found has a hot tank. Hopefully the races will fall out for me, which can save me some frustration. If not, I got a couple ideas. Nate Pharr suggested for the input shaft race to use a small pry bar or something under the race, then use a 1/2" extension in the input shaft tunnel and bang the extension against the pry bar with a hammer, moving the pry bar around as necessary.


spoulson
(0 people like this)
05/07/04 07:42 AM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

A quick update for the records. I finished the trans and got it back in the car a few weeks ago.

Initially, it drove well but shifted extremely tight. I often had to row the shifter back/forth in different gears to get 1st to go in. Reverse required me to disengage the clutch slowly to go in. 3rd had a minor grind/crunch going in at or above synchronized engagement rpms. I later determined this is because I must have mistakenly overshimmed the shafts, causing them to not move freely to allow easy movement.

My solution was to readjust the shims. But, I really didn't feel like pulling the trans again. I ended up doing the job with the trans on the car. It was not very difficult doing it this way at all.

After reassembly and a little time for the axle sealant to cure, I refilled the oil and gave it a test drive. MUCH better. Now it drives like stock.

Lessons learned:
  • It is possible to rebuild the trans while on the car. I would not recommend this the first time doing trans work, as you can't study it like you would on a workbench.
  • When doing the on-car trans tear down, removing roll pins from shift rails can be difficult with not much room. I found that a few nails I had laying around fit the diameter perfectly if I cut them shorter and used a regular hammer to drive the pin out.
  • I really need a small gear puller that can pull off the 5th gear from the shaft by the ledge around the top of it. Doing it with prybars just chips the edges of the teeth.
  • Putting oil in the transmission and transfer case can be difficult and messy without the right tools. I came across an inexpensive Mityvac Fluid transfer pump at Pep Boys. One tube in the bottle and the other in the fill hole, then you pump it without getting any junk on you in the process.
  • When installing the oil filter screen, I was initially stumped as to how to install. There is an obvious location on the case with little dowels sticking out. Put the filter there and hammer the dowels flat.
  • If you don't use them already, cardboard boxes are you friend when working under your car.
  • My garage still smells like gear oil.


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
05/07/04 01:12 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

Nice. Mine's been done for a few months too. I am having the same problem you described: tight 1st and 2nd and slight grinding in 2nd and 3rd. I guess I need to set the bearing preload lower. The spec for the solder crush test gives you a range of +/- .005" if I remember correctly. I tried to set it right in the middle. Now it seems I should have set it a bit on the loose side. I think I'll try re-torquing the case bolts 1-2 ft. lbs. less than spec before I tear into it again. I was hoping for better shifting than this. Thanks for the tips, Shawn.

spoulson
(0 people like this)
05/07/04 01:44 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I'm not convinced case bolt torque is a major factor of preload. I always reassembled with a torque wrench in a star pattern in stages until all are ~25lb/ft.

As for loose shimming, don't go too loose. It may seem ok, but whatever that limit is, you don't want to allow for too much lateral movement in the shafts. This may break shift forks, which are fixed in position and cannot move much with the shaft.

It seems to me that shimming is a practice that needs to be perfected over time. My shims were measured out to be larger than the biggest you can buy. So, I got two equal-size shims to total the size I needed for the input/intermediate shafts. So when I realized it had to be too tight, I removed one of those shims from input/intermediate each, thereby halving the shim size. I am probably a little too loose and I will have to re-measure the endplay some day.


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
05/07/04 01:48 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

quote:
Originally posted by spoulson:

It seems to me that shimming is a practice that needs to be perfected over time.

Yeah, I agree with you that it seems to boil down to trial and error. But it sure is a drag that we have tear the tranny apart every time it's not just right.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/12/05 09:52 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

My tranny pops out of first gear and grinds horribly, nearly impossible to use. checked most of the easy external things, im narrowing it down to something inside the tranny... I'm a noob, and i would like/desperately need help and pointers. This looks like a great thread, keep it going.

thx, Joe


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
05/17/05 09:20 PM
Re: GVR4 Tranny rebuild. Difficult?

I got the tranny dropped!!! woot. Well, I'm happy, and now i can do what i need to get a better shifting tranny in there.


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