**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/09/04 09:08 PM
Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Can an oil feed line from the filter housing give off too much
pressure for a ball bearing turbo?

Was wondering If I should use the factory oil feed location from the
head for a dual ball bearing.

Would you recommend an inline filter, or does the RRE oil feed line already have a filter in the line.. I'll ask around to one of my friends at RRE..

Thanks!


Matticus
(Senior Member)
10/09/04 09:16 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Yes. Yes, factory location. And you should use an in-line filter. I have heard of vendors not warranting BB turbos due to oil issues if no in-line filter was used. BB turbos do not like high oil pressure, the filter helps keep it in check. I don't know about RREs feed line though.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/09/04 10:22 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I would go with factory location. I have an oil pressure gauge hooked up to filter housing. When the car is cold, the oil pressure is over 100 psi.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/11/04 07:35 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Read this from Forced Performance. It's about halfway down the page. I'm following their advice - they ought to know.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/11/04 11:24 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I wish I would have read this part sooner:
"As far as filters go, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. You shouldn't need one in your oil line. Failures occur due to dirt/grit in the oil making it into the turbocharger. Failures also occur due to plugged filters. We have seen it both ways. If you are going to use a filter, check it often."
My AGP L1R came with an inline oil filter, which apparently became clogged on the way back from the last hurricane evacuation. With less than 5000 miles on it, the turbo is totally hosed. The bearings have so much play in them that the compressor wheel is scraping the housing.
I backwashed the filter with carb cleaner, and the stuff that came out was a gritty carbon-like material, that dissolved when you rubbed it between your fingers. I've been running straight 30W oil, as the rings are still breaking in, so it may have been contaminants from the oil breaking down.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/11/04 05:43 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Sorry to hear about that Jeff!

Thanks for the help guys!


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/30/04 10:10 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Jeff, your luck is just like mine. That grit is probably junk that was lurking in the oil galley of the head that broke loose. You see it more in the oil pan when you don't time a ball bearing turbo and the oil cokes on the bearing. Then when the turbo reaches operating temperature, the crap flies off and lands down in the oil pan. I'd pull the oil feed bolt and use a long ass bristle brush (test tube type) to loosen up the rest of the crap, then drain the crankcase and fill it up with kerosene or engine flush, and spin the motor over with the starter (with the coils unplugged/fuel pump unplugged) and flush the crap out of that oil galley. The head is the proper place to get oil for a ball bearing turbo. Problem is, most rebuilders don't clean that galley very well. I found powdered aluminum in one of mine fresh from the shop after surfacing, because they didn't flush the galley after the head was milled. Kerosene has enough oil in it that it won't hurt any bearings just spinning it over with the starter. You'll cringe when you see what comes out of there though...
dave


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/31/04 12:27 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I think that the vendor of the turbo should be able to provide the support for this kind of information. If not, then they are not doing a very good job. Turbos are expensive, and somebody should have a simple answer for this issue. It's not the first time somebody has asked the question.

I think a in-line filter of some type should be used for all turbos. At the same time, all of the in-line filters I have seen are not very large. This means that they will clog quickly. Also, there is no way to inspect them visually without pulling the assembly apart. There are Gano filters for coolant systems which allow you to visually inspect coolant conditions and act as a filter at the same time. It would be nice if something like this was available for oil in-line to the turbo. At the very least, a filter with a much larger surface area would help.

The FP site mentions sandblasting. There are some head re-builders that use a salt bath to clean the parts. I had a head cleaned like this and I found salt crystals in every crevice. I can't believe that this residue is completely inert.

I would never run a new (rebuilt) engine with a new turbo without having a very strict regiment. You all know the situation: An once of prevention is a pound of cure. Its so easy to not follow.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/31/04 07:21 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

It was a new head, and we cleaned it very well. I'm pretty sure what I had was entirely combustion contaminants that made their way into the oil. It was a fresh re-ring job, and I had quite a bit of blowby at one point.
Anyone going the BB turbo and filter route: I would HIGHLY advise that you break the engine in with an old turbo first if it is a fresh engine. Slap the old 14b in there for a few weeks/months. There's just no sense in taking out a $1300 in the first 5000 miles because of stupid blowby!


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
10/31/04 02:11 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Well Ive had a rebuilt engine for 10k miles.. and am about to slap on my new dual ball bearing turbo, I think I'll be good. Im going to go to the local Earl's place and have them make me up a -4AN line for the feed.

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
10/31/04 07:37 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

These incedents are certainly costly but I still feel that in the scope of the industry that they are isolated problems. Were the turbos from the same supplier? We have a couple of customers with Garrett GT turbos on their VW's and plenty of aquaintences with BB turbo powered SR20 motors and I've never seen/heard of this problem. Anyone care to comment on an inspection of the cartdrige after the failure?

AL


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 08:54 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I'll gladly send it to you for inspection if you want Al. I certainly have no use for this huge paperweight at the moment.
Jeff


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 09:02 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Jeff, I probably wouldn't know what to look for! I'm going to call Garrett today and ask them some questions.. hopefully we can get some solid info.

AL


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 09:34 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Aiiight. I just called Garrett and spoke to a technician there. I don't know if this is very helpful but at least it's HARD information on the setup of these bad boys.

Requirements: Turbo must be fed filtered oil, filtered to 20 microns.

Turbo must be water cooled. The bearing cages and housing material is one that requires constant cooling to avert expansion. So.. that means you have to keep your waterlines if you want to go BB.

The RRE Oil supply line is supposedly from the filtered end of the fluid path as shown on their site.



I can't see why that would be a bad place to get oil from.

As for filtration, Bailey Motorsport uses a steel element inline filter that goes down to 25 microns. Earls and Aeroquip have filters for fuel that go that low as well with sintered bronze and/or steel elements which might not be a bad idea for those who want the extra safety. I'm going to call Aeroquip later about the filter's intended use versus the use inline on a turbo.

A FRAM oil filter is good for 20 microns so in an ideal world, that should cover it.


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 10:20 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I just got off the phone with Aeroquip Aerospace Product Support Engineer Tom Chicoski. He said that from an enginering standpoint that there is nothing wrong with using a sintered bronze filter inline, before or after the turbo as the filter element is perfectly acceptable for gasoline, hydraulic fluid and oil conveyance.

This suggests that the Earls or Aeroquip filter should be more than sufficient for this application. If anyone wants to order one we can supply them or you can go to Summitracing or whatnot. This doesn't speak to Jeff's problem of oil filter clogging though, I guess that if it's over 20 microns it won't go through.. end of story- if it did there would also be problems.



Al


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 11:33 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Quote:

I can't see why that would be a bad place to get oil from.




Bim, the Ball Bearing center cartridge can't see more than 60psi of oil pressure, a few friends over at RRE say that from the oil filter housing the oil can exceed 60psi regularly.

From AGP's site "This must be supplied with a constant flow of CLEAN oil at pressures no greater than 60psi."

I found some GREAT info on GT series BB turbo's from these links:

AGP GT link

ATP GT link

PTE GT link




Here are a few pics of my new turbo




Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 12:38 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Where did you see that? None of those links said that. If it's true then running off the head may be a better idea with the inline filter.

Who knows what the pressure at the head is though.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 12:42 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

here you go bim

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 12:46 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Nice. I think that Terren did link that and I just missed it the first time. Well that's interesting, important to remember that the failures we've been discussing aren't from overpressure also, but from contamination.
Garrett is going to call us back at the shop because I just left a message requesting verification.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 12:50 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Ya, that quote was in the middle of one of AGP's paragraphs , sorry for no clarification.

AWDnot2
(Senior Member)
11/01/04 02:46 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Why do they make the inlet so large?

bazeng
(work in progress)
11/01/04 04:30 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

i think those types of inlets have a special thing where air flows through that other outside passage at a certain rev.. making it more efficient etc..

i read it somewhere.. but not sure where.. lol


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 05:13 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

It's a GT30 Compressor housing

Hksvr4
(The New Vettel)
11/01/04 05:29 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

nice turbo. Hey let us know how's the spool up time. thanks

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 05:38 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

It will probably be about 4K rpm to full boost with that turbo based only "loosely" on my experience on one in a WRX.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 06:05 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Ya, I know I'll see full boost before 4000rpm, hopefully a bit closer to 3600 (when my green got full spool).. I think it being dual ball bearing It should be right around there.

I was just talking to Robert at RRE for a while about my turbo, and my center section has a built in oil restrictor and I buy this oil fitting for the oil feed

.. So as you can tell thats pretty restrictive and allows me to run oil from the filter housing regardless of how much pressure it puts out, that fitting, I guess you could say regulates how much is fed.

I wouldnt want to get any foreign shit(particles, etc) into that small of a hole from my head and risk starving my new precious.

I'll just run a 90* -4AN fitting from the above fitting to my normal oil feed line from the filter housing.

-Oh ya, its an anti-surge TO4E style compressor housing.. There are many diff. comp housings that are labled 'to4e',some are 3/4"in, 2/2.5"out this one happens to have a 4" inlet, 2" outlet.


RayH
(Senior Member)
11/01/04 06:21 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I wonder how much it would cost to build an entirely self contained oil system for the turbo with a small electric pump, oil cooler, filter and reservoir. You would never have to worry about engine oil mixing with the turbo oil, could run different grades on each and change each independently.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 06:23 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Now that would be a great idea ^^^

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 06:33 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Terren, most turbos have those built in. The only thing that regulates pressure with a system like that is the differential between the inlet and outlet. If the inlet was that size, and the outlet (the drain) were the same the pressure would be as high as the pressure goes for the oil system. Since the oil drains faster than it goes in it's roughly regulated by the diffenence in port sizes. Nothing too fancy but I guess it works.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 06:40 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

So do you think I would be ok with feeding it from the filter housing w/ the built in restrictor and the above fitting? Thanks Al, always a great help!

Here's a pic of the built in restrictor(blurry):


Outlet, appears to be mitsu style:


Hksvr4
(The New Vettel)
11/01/04 06:48 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Quote:

Outlet, appears to be mitsu style:



Im not sure bout that. The my rs52 was different, it is a garrett center section. I had to get a drain kit from agp. http://www.agpturbo.com/customer/product.php?productid=84&cat=84&page=1


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 06:50 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Yay more money

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/01/04 06:55 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Let's wait until tomorrow. Garrett owes me a call back on that subject. I'd rather not speculate.

Speaking with the aeroquip rep, the inline pre filter has to be cleaned out a lot, it's a race application which means teams clean the element after every race. It doesn't seem like a good road application.

Terren, let's wait for more from the horses mouth but your on the right track i think.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/01/04 06:56 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Sounds good, thanks alot

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/03/04 01:09 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Any wise words Bim?

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/03/04 04:39 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Terren I'll call today on the pressure. No one called me back.


AL


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/08/04 08:20 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Terren et al.

Here's the straight dope from Garrett and Tial Sport.

The turbo wants and operates best at 30PSI oil pressure. That's correct, THIRTY. It will also work at up to 60 but the excessive pressure will slow the turbo's reaction. Tial Sport, who is one of the few exclusive distributors is working on a pressure limiting device and they will let me know asap when I can get some in at the shop. We should be among the first to know.

We are also working on a similar device that should go into testing within about 3 weeks.

As far as the other issues, I feel like I can now speak to those after talking with both Garrett engineers and Tial Sport who prepares ALMS, IMSA, Porsche GT1, GT2 and supplies many rally teams and has been working with Nissan for years (they have the experience) that the ball bearing turbos are no more succeptable to damage through contamination than are hydrodynamic bearing turbos (normal, bushing type)

So the facts are, in summary:

30psi optimum
Must be watercooled
the limiting orifice calculated by garrett is about 30thousands at the oil inlet at present.

Tial has yet to see damage through contamination and has been studying Nissan SR20 powered cars for several years as they are the first and only to do ball bearing as OEM.

That's all for now, I hope that helps.

AL


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/08/04 09:15 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

So, what that means is that the filter, which clogged and took out my turbo, isn't really necessary?

Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/09/04 04:39 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Right.

I can only guess that since it's a motorsport filter that it requires constant maintenance and that could be the problem. The requirement is 20 microns which is covered by the stock filter. Jeff, maybe something else was at play? Was it glass beaded at any time?

A


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/09/04 06:34 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

AL,

Thanks for the good info.

Quote:

The turbo wants and operates best at 30PSI oil pressure. That's correct, THIRTY. It will also work at up to 60 but the excessive pressure will slow the turbo's reaction.




So where to plumb the oil feed? From the oil filter housing there will definitely be more than 60psi especially when cold, but from the head it will be a lot less than 30psi when hot. Hmmm... I'm hoping the AN-3 line feeding my BB turbo from the head is enough.


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/09/04 06:37 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Kyle, I'd go off the head. I'm eager to see what Tial comes up with to control pressure. They kept assuring me that the turbo does not need a lot of oil pressure thus leading me to conclude that less, in this case should be more. Esp with synthetic oil....

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/09/04 08:57 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Quote:

Right.
Jeff, maybe something else was at play? Was it glass beaded at any time?
A



No, the stuff in the filter was definitely carbon-based contaminants. You could just rub it between your fingers and it would dissolve/disappear.
Now, knowing this, I may just spend the money for a new center-section, and try again, WITHOUT a filter.


nrvous
(One Member)
11/09/04 09:19 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Although I am a nerd by profession, I work for a company that builds hydraulic and pnuematic systems. My initial reaction for controling pressure to the turbo is to look into a hydraulic pressure regulator or something that is already designed to do this. There are hundreds of setups available for making a bypass regulator valve or something to control the pressure at the turbo, without limiting volume through a pin hole.

-stephen


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/09/04 11:02 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

From what I can see, the above fitting I posted is made to work with the built in oil restrictor that my GT30R has.. I understand that the filter housing can get to above 60psi, but I think that with the built in restrictor and this fitting I'll be fine running from the filter housing.

Maybe feeding from the head AND having this built in restrictor/fitting could actually be too restrictive, even though you're saying less may be better.. A friend of mine just told me he's tested the oil pressure from the head and got 20psi.

Im stuck on this and want to get the car back together


Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/10/04 04:53 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

We're designing a bypass valve just like you said using stock scientific industry components nervous.. That's right what I was thinking also.

Should be in testing once we get a quote on the valve itself which could be later this week.. just waiting right now.



Al


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/11/04 08:30 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..



Bimmubishi
(giant log)
11/12/04 04:37 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Terren, just hook it up. You have no idea how complicated this bypass system has to be in order to work and maintain oil pressure for the rest of the engine. It's going to be a while.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/12/04 12:33 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

Haha, ok I'll just hook it up to the housing and hope for the best

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
11/13/04 08:54 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I don't know that feeding from the head is a good idea. It's the last place to get oil from and on startup that could be too late (or at least no benefit) for the turbo. I had a similar conversation at SEMA and was told to use a -3AN feed line from the oil filter housing to the turbo.

The thing that worries me about the restrictor fitting is the spray pattern out of it. If the feed line up to the fitting is 100psi (common at redline), the oil that comes out of that tiny hole could spray rather than pour. I know lots of people use this method with some success, so I can't discount it.

The oil at the filter housing is already filtered, but I'm not sure how fine the filtering is. I hope that if the Mobil 1 M105 is good enough for the engine, it's gotta be good enough for the turbo.


mr.mitsu
(Member +++)
12/23/07 10:24 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location.. *DELETED*

Post deleted by Terry Posten

Dialcaliper
(Flagration Member)
12/27/07 12:55 AM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

If you wanted a really trick setup, you'd feed from the oil filter housing into an electric powered positive displacement pump (probably an impeller type pump?), so that you can meter exactly how much oil passes through it. Then to the turbo, then a spring regulator at the turbo oil drain with a generous tube back to the oil pan.

That way you can keep the flow up, but the pressure down at a fixed level without dropping the rest of the system pressure. In this situation, the pump would probably be restricting flow rather than pushing it forward.

There's also the possibility of some sort of variable mechanical throttling valve. These sorts of things exist for industrial water systems, you could probably do something similar.

Constant Pressure Valve

All in all, for a given pressure though the turbo lines, the amount of flow through the turbo is constant unless you control the drop in the system somehow. It doesn't matter what sort of bypass setup or restrictor you have to obtain that pressure, the flow through the CHRA is the same.


Brianawd
(Higher Launch RPM)
01/15/08 03:17 PM
Re: Ball Bearing Oil Feed Location..

I use a inline filter with my FP3052. Every time I have ever checked it there has been some carbon in the filter. I think it takes me less then 5min to pull the filter and put in the new clean screen. I do this once a week. Its so easy why not do it.


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